Bleh indeed. I was hoping black would go a, starting a ladder that would have terminated around b in favour of white. As it is, I suspect that white shall have to play at a, since c will result in a ladder that terminates around d in favour of black. I'll think on this for a while, I think.. - MoonShadow.
I read that one, fortunately for me. I'm still worried about the fate of the group at 1 though. -- Kazuhiko
Well, I've effectively declared the upper right black group dead, if white wishes to remove it. The way I read the ladder would lead to a breakout frustratingly near the end. One which I would have been able to stop if the other end was blocked. Any thoughts? -- Kazuhiko
MoonShadow: I was hoping that would be the case when I played White's last two moves. It should still be dead after this move:
(I think there's lots of similar plays. Black could do a instead of 5, white could try going for b, c then one of the ds instead of 4..)
AlexChurchill thinks black can still stop white getting two eyes at bottom-left, but has to be careful. Stone 1 below is vulnerable to white (a), and probably needs defending, maybe by playing (a) or (b). I think white needs to get both (c)s to get two eyes, and a white play at either one can be responded to by a black at the other. And with a black stone at either (a) or (b), I think such an attack is safe for black. I think I'll leave it to Kazuhiko to choose which, although I might find myself joining the black team soon anyway :)
Let's try that out...
...what now?
Angoel: I think that black would be better off playing 3 on 7. If white plays at 3, then black can play at b, stopping white getting two eyes.
Suppose black has played 3 as above, though...
AlexChurchill: I think I'd play the (9) marked above, rather than the one you suggested (a). That seems to me to make the black defense-of-the-corner safer. Altho I've no idea whether the black stones connected to 5 and 7 are in fact going to live. It's white to play next in the diagram above... care to continue? :)
MoonShadow: If they don't live, black has failed to get rid of the white group. Which is what I'm hoping for.
Black to play next (I think that kills it; if black doesn't do 3, white plays there instead)
AlexChurchill: You're right. I was hoping white would move 3 or a, in which case black lives. I concluded, as you did, that black dies on white 2. But what happens if...
4 captures the piece at 1... does white now play 6 where 1 was?I think black 7 at (a) would kill the white stones then...
Hmm - I think we're getting confused by notation for captures. D'oh! Yes, you're quite right.
What does white do now? I argued above that playing (a) loses the white stones to a black response at (b). You seem to be suggesting instead white plays at one of the (c)s, but then black plays (a) and his black stones have a liberty, which black can then fill in to connect to the outside world... -- AlexChurchill
...something like this? Black is forced to play (4), otherwise white would play there to capture (2).
AlexChurchill: Yes, something like that. White gets a free move, maybe one of the (a)s if feeling aggressive; but as long as Black can now save the large group featuring (4), White's stones in the corner are dead...
Also,
White isn't fast enough there - (a) kills it. Can white do something better in response to (2)?
Discussion grabbed on 2/12/02:
Current thoughts:
Then,
(black (3) takes white group at (a); white then lives in corner)
or
(white surrenders same group as last time to live in bottom middle. Is there a way for white to play at (a) and still live in the bottom left corner, though?)
Actually, I was expecting you to immediately attack at 2 (or nearby). Unfortunately, I can't defend as long as you are laddering my centre group. - Kazuhiko
MoonShadow: I can't carry on doing that for very much longer.. MoonShadow's thoughts on [this] position:
..a is suicide, b is pointless (leads to ..6). What now?
AlexChurchill responds by playing elsewhere, trying to ignore the problem in the hope it'll go away :) I know that group was dead if you played right, from about revision 119 onwards... At [Revision 142], AlexChurchillthinks the bottom-right corner is safe for black now. The below are a couple of explorations of different White (2)s, which I think are fine for Black. White did of course go on to attack, with (2) and (3) as in the lower example, but diverging from then on...
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