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A page for discussion of combos, or of cards which must be possible to combo with *something*.
See /ComboMeThisArchive for older discussion.
Huge-but-finite amounts of mana
[Edwin] and NeilRoques have been wondering how much mana it's possible for a 60-card deck to generate, with the restriction that the deck does not contain an infinite combo anywhere, assuming optimal draws and a docile opponent. Neil quickly suggested elves as the best way to do this, and MTG: Soul Foundry with MTG: Priest of Titania seemed the logical choice. After some thought, we hit on using a MTG: Voltaic Construct to keep untapping the Soul Foundry, animated with MTG: March of the Machines. MTG: Seedborn Muse allows us untap and do this in the opponent's turn too. The last card in the library is Fireball, which we set off for more than 2^(2^100) damage.
Can anyone suggest a significantly better way? MTG: Angelic Chorus and MTG: Coat of Arms with a MTG: Channel at the end would double the final score, and provide protection before then, but doubling doesn't make the number look very different.
- Well, the general principle that exponentials beat anything polynomial is a good place to start... To be honest, avoiding infinite combos is the problem. Offhand, the red Onslaught block enchantment which says 'whenever a creature comes into play, add n to your mana pool, where n is the number of creatures that share a creature type with it' or whatever will do the trick. Then you just need something to turn mana into typed tokens, and a way of turning every card in the deck into another trip around. I seem to recall some Gate type artifacts that will bring creatures into play straight from deck at the cost of tapping and some mana - all you need then is a way to turn something finite (cards, say) into untaps. Sounds like a broken blue enchantment to me. I'd imagine you can get something of the order M^3^3^3^3...50ish times ...^3 out of that. I've seen it done as a one-turn affair with Goblins, using Patrician's Bidding to do the limited iterations. I seem to recall that it was possible to express the answer, and I think it was lower than yours. --Inquisitor
- (PeterTaylor) Stupid amounts - I'm talking googols here. See http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=283280
- I feel completely outclassed now --Edwin
- Completely inspired. MTG: Solarion is a great card for that kind of thing, and obviously terrifying with MTG: Voltaic Construct. Interesting that it's such recent cards which have brought up so high the non-infinite combo potential of all of Magic. --AlexChurchill
Aaaand... Ravnica has brought whole new insanity to this question. Googols - even googolplexes - are utterly dwarfed by the potential mana of even 13 cards containing no infinite combo. AlexChurchill always liked the way that Ravnica makes possible the simple 3-card combo of MTG: Opalescence, MTG: Doubling Season and MTG: Followed Footsteps, which could create well over a googol 5/5s if left to themselves for just 5 turns. Well, [this post] takes this idea and runs with it. He's answering the challenge of dealing as much damage as possible on turn 6, but the penultimate step involves tapping MTG: Gaea's Cradle (as do several other steps) so he's answered the mana question as well. And when I say "answered", I mean "we'll have to use WikiPedia: notation of very large numbers to describe it".
If we let N be the number of existing Doubling Seasons in play, he ends up being able to tap MTG: Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker to make 2^N token copies of MTG: Doubling Season; being able to tap MTG: Gaea's Cradle to get N green mana; and being able to pay 2 mana to untap Kiki-Jiki.
Oh, and he also has three MTG: Deserted Temple in play, with which he can untap the Cradle; and two MTG: Turnabout, with which he can untap the three temples and the Cradle. His first Cradle tap yields 7 green mana.
Are you scared yet?
If my (AlexChurchill)'s calculations are right, this combo generates 2^^^13 creatures on turn 6. What's that triple arrow mean? I'm glad you asked...
Recall that a^^b = a^(a^(...a tower b high...(a^a)...)). So 2^^3 = 2^2^2 = 2^4 = 16; and 3^^2 = 3^3 = 27; and 3^^3 = 3^(3^3) = 3^27 = 7,625,597,484,987.
This notation can be extended to a^^^b = a^^(a^^(...a tower b high...(a^^a)...)). It can be extended even further, but this'll do for now.
2 ^^^ 2 is 2^^2 = 2^2 = 4.
2 ^^^ 3 is 2^^4 = 2^^4 = 2^2^2^2 = 65536
2 ^^^ 4 is 2^^65536 = 2^2^2^(...65536 levels...)^2^2.
And remember, the top 4 levels of this tower make 65536. The 5th level down is 2^65536, which has nearly 20000 digits. There are another 65531 levels to go. This 2^^^4 is one absurd, unimaginably large number.)
2 ^^^ 5 is 2^^ that number, which is a tower that high of 2s.
2 ^^^ 13 is how many creatures this guy makes on turn 6, using only 13 cards.
Each Kiki-Jiki tap, targeting the animate MTG: Doubling Season, tries to put a Doubling Season token into play. But instead it makes more than one token. If there's one Season around, making one new copy instead makes two. If there are three Seasons, making one new copy instead makes eight. If there are eleven Seasons around, making one new copy instead makes 2048.
If N is how many Seasons there are in play, tapping KJ once makes N become equal to N + 2^N, which for large numbers can be approximated as 2^N.
Tapping KJ twice makes N ::= 2^2^N.
Tapping KJ k times makes N ::= 2^(... a tower k high...(N)...) = 2^^k[N] < 2^^k.
So we get functions
kiki-once(N) = 2^N
= number of Seasons after tapping Kiki once, starting with N Seasons
cradle-kiki(N) = 2^^(N÷2)[N]
= number of Seasons after tapping a Cradle for N mana, and then tapping Kiki half that many times, starting with N Seasons
I'll approximate with
cradle-kiki(N) = 2^^N.
I don't like making this approximation, because unlike all the other approximations here, this one rounds up from the actual numbers involved in the combo. However, I'm confident that the rounding up is cancelled out by the other roundings down involved here.
At the start of turn 6, he has 1 Season in play.
First he taps Kiki: making two more Seasons. This makes his Cradle tap for 7 mana. Then he spends 6 of that mana untapping Kiki 3 times and getting three more activations. So when all that is used up, we have
cradle-kiki(7) = 2^^3 > 2^^3.
Seasons in play. (This number works out as 2^2059, for what it's worth - about 10^619.) Then he taps the Temple to untap the Cradle. After all /that/ is used up, we have
Seasons. He taps the second and third Temple, each time iterating the cradle-kiki function, to get
= 2^^ (2^^3)
N = cradle-kiki(cradle-kiki(cradle-kiki(cradle-kiki(7))))
Then he casts Turnabout, which untaps the Cradle and the three Temples. Now he can iterate cradle-kiki four more times, to get
> 2^^ (2^^ (2^^ (2^^(2^^3)) ))
N2 = cradle-kiki(cradle-kiki(cradle-kiki(cradle-kiki(N))))
And, one more Turnabout yields four more cradle-kiki iterations:
> 2^^ (2^^ (2^^ (2^^ (2^^^5) )))
N3 = cradle-kiki(cradle-kiki(cradle-kiki(cradle-kiki(N2))))
So. We have WELL OVER 2^^^13 Doubling Seasons in play. That is, well over
> 2^^ (2^^ (2^^ (2^^ (2^^^9) )))
2 ^^ (2 ^^ (2 ^^ (2 ^^ (2 ^^ (2 ^^ (2 ^^ (2 ^^ (2 ^^ (2 ^^ (2 ^^ (2 ^^ 2)))))))))))
Recall each 2 ^^ k there means "make a tower k high of 2s".
And thankfully, all these tokens have haste, so you can attack with them. That's quite a lot of damage on turn 6. Imagine what you could do with 54 more turns...
- SF can improve on this, but only by playing in the same game as this combo deck. There are a variety of ways to have seven mana on turn 6, so I'll assume one of them is avaialble. Assuming this goes off in precombat main phase, the opposition merely needs to play MTG: Natural Affinity and MTG: Reins of Power, before, well, see above...
Radiate and Splice
Inspired by the Brainburst Fantasy Card [Spiritstorm], AlexChurchill is intrigued by the possible combinations of MTG: Radiate with the Splice onto Arcane mechanic. The key is the phrase in Radiate's wording, "targets a single permanent or player". I note that it's thus possible to Radiate a Spliced combination of MTG: Glacial Ray and MTG: Soulless Revival, as a card in graveyard is neither permanent nor player... however, I fear the copies may all be forced to target the same card in graveyard as the original, since MTG: Radiate's wording doesn't allow for any other targets to be changed.
This type of interaction isn't new: it could have occurred with Radiate on MTG: Cruel Revival, for example. Much more exciting is the prospect of, for example, radiating a MTG: Reach Through Mists with some targetted splice spell spliced onto it; even more so MTG: Petals of Insight, although that's now needing at least 11 mana. Most terrifying of all, though, is the prospect of casting MTG: Cranial Extraction with something like a MTG: Psychic Puppetry spliced on... and then casting MTG: Radiate on that combination :-o I'll tap everything you control, untap everything I control, and remove your entire hand and library (except lands) from the game... Not to mention this allows MTG: Psychogenic Probe to be a win condition ;);)[Useful search for further possibilities]
- Except MTG: Cranial Extraction does target. Whoops. That would be a functionality error. --AC
(Answering a question on a previous version of this page) You can't Radiate Wishes, indeed, because they don't target any permanent or player. I just want to see Wizards print the card that says "All sorcery and instant spells target player plays this turn are Arcane", as then (with a cheap targeted splicer) you could do just that. --AlexChurchill
- Heh. That would go nicely with an arbitrarily large mana engine - play your entire card collection at once, with all 'X's arbitrarily large (I ignore apocrpyhal Unhinged cards until tomorrow). --Requiem boggles
- You can play your entire card collection. MTG: Burning Wish and MTG: Mirari . Use the original to get the sorcery you want, and the copy to get another Burning Wish. You'll also need a MTG: Cunning Wish if you want to play all your instants, but you can get other card types from wishing for wishes. --Edwin
Just a really, really idle thought: would there be any way to force your opponent to have his entire deck in his hand? I'm sure there's something involving MTG: Graceful Adept... I was just thinking, that and something like MTG: Myojin of Night's Reach, or something else to make them discard their hand. Come to think of it, it sounds a bit obvious, but... any thoughts? --FR
- MTG: Mine! Mine! Mine! is what you want. Either that, or a really big MTG: Prosperity, MTG: Braingeyser or MTG: Stroke of Genius. But generally, if you can get all those cards into your opponent's hand, you just need to make them draw one card to win straight out. (Except for in the case of MTG: Mine! Mine! Mine! - which, I can't help thinking, would be great fun to use in a Prismatic deck. In that case, a black Myojin hit would be just nasty.) --AlexChurchill
- I did wonder about MTG: Mine! Mine! Mine!, as it's a card I'm quite familiar with, but ut had has the slight problem of being unglued. So, another use for an infinite mana loop. --FR
- Nasty? Or cool? What if you have a Darksteel Colossus? How can you make it such that your whole strategy revolves around drawing and then discarding (or playing, then sacrificing) a Darksteel Colossus every turn? --Requiem, high on caffeine and silliness
Horobi and/or Endless Whispers
Something slightly less silly.
MTG: Horobi, Death's Wail. Use the little kamis from Betrayers with useful abilities (MTG: Kami of False Hope, MTG: Bile Urchin, MTG: Teardrop Kami, MTG: Frostling, MTG: Child of Thorns and probably MTG: Traproot Kami) in conjunction with MTG: Horobi and MTG: Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker). Could this work? I would picture it as green/black, with substantial use of MTG: Orochi Leafcaller or something similar. --FR
I realise it's not ideal, but would using something like MTG: Yomiji, Who Bars The Way work? that way, you'd just have to play Horobi again next turn. --FR
- I found out at the prerelease that keeping Horobi alive is not an easy task. --Edwin
- A very valid point. Maybe some whispersilk cloaks or something like that, to stop it working against itself? Also, I think that MTG: Time of Need would be essential. --FR
- Equip costs target, so MTG: Whispersilk Cloak would be somewhat counterproductive. --CH
- If you stifle his ability when you put the cloak on, you'd be sorted. --Edwin
- Um - but stifling him would target him - so he'd then die before the stifle took effect. I think. --Vitenka
- No, thankfully. MTG: Stifle targets an ability on the stack, not a creature. Hence MTG: Lightning Greaves being in there as well as MTG: Stifle. The equip cost on the Greaves is cheaper, and haste is more useful on an MTG: Eater of Days than unblockability ;) --AC (yes, this deck does have too many themes running through it)
- The first two Kami you list there don't target - though they're still useful. Horobi is indeed hard to keep alive - the truly gross combination with him is to use "Return all your creatures to your hand" type cards to save him, and the legends set "Any number of target permanents become (colour)" or similar. --Vitenka
- (reproachful tone) Vitenka! You've just told everyone (two of) the tricks to my Horobi deck I built on Wednesday night! (MTG: Part the Veil and MTG: Sway of Illusion, respectively) ;) --AC
- It does MORE? Ebil. More repeatable targetting is whassis name the red shaman. Under blue I guess you're using the 'return land to hand to target' things. --Vitenka (White also has some evil fun here - Horobi just builds decks.)
- MTG: Prodigal Sorcerer is a bit simpler than some Soratami that sets back my mana development! ;) --AC
- Targetting just one thing isn't usually enough, though. I generally find I need to wipe out EVERYTHING with Horobi, because the very next tick, my opponent destroys him utterly. Though the 'target x things' may be enough here. (Oooh.. the new ones with discard costs...) the prod also can't be used on the turn it comes out, where the otehrs can. You're also screwed against regerators and indestructible stuff, aren't you? --Vitenka
- Neil suggested MTG: Endless Whispers, which I think would be good with some repeatable cheap targetting. --Edwin
- This is very very hard to actually use well. All too often your opponent ends up better off. --Vitenka
- That's pretty good - although it only means they have to target two things (it and then horobi) and they usually want to target as many of your creatures as they can the turn they target Horobi, anyway. --Vitenka
- Definitely one of the best ideas with Horobi is MTG: Steely Resolve, set to Spirit. Ha ha! --AC
- (PeterTaylor) MTG: Dense Foliage is an alternative - the choice depends on the metagame. MTG: Leonin Abunas (or MTG: Fountain Watch / MTG: Hanna's Custody) + MTG: Mycosynth Lattice is truly better once you get both into play. Of course, being who we are we'd probably rather use MTG: Spellbane Centaur and colour-hacking. Finally, if you have an alternative win condition then MTG: Spiritual Asylum works quite nicely.
- Erm, surely both MTG: Dense Foliage and the MTG: Mycosynth Lattice + other card options prevent you targetting your opponents' creatures, thus rather negating MTG: Horobi? --CH
- No - they prevent you targetting them in certain ways. So you can use the 'no spells' one, and then target solely with creatures (by far the best option anyway) And the options that go with the synth are asymmetrical. --Vitenka
- Dense Foliage allows abilities to target (both yours and your opponents'), which does seem to leave Horobi pretty vulnerable. MTG: Hanna's Custody is universal and totally negates Horobi if Lattice is in play, but Abunas or Fountain Watch only protect their controller's stuff and are much better choices. Hacking a Spellbane Centaur does have appeal but would be of limited use against a multicolour opponent. --AC
One thing that does work nicely with whispers is the white divinity counter. (The blue one too, I think) --Vitenka (ooh, for added evil, the 'when it goes to the graveyard' dragons just get plain STRANGE with whispers in play.)
I heard of one game in which two copies of MTG: Yosei hit play with an MTG: Endless Whispers around. I'll let you figure that one out, but apparently not much happened for the rest of the game. --AC
- Ok, let's see - no, that's not too bad. Sure, the Yosei's come back every turn - and immediately bounce off the legend rule and swap controller (to come back again next turn) - but they don't get a divinity counter, since they're coming into play from graveyard, not hand. --Vitenka (Though yes, momentarily I envisaged myself writing in this space 'well, it's only two instant speed MTG: Wrath of God effects a turn, that's not too bad...')
- You're thinking of the MTG: Myojin of Cleansing Fire. This was MTG: Yosei, the white dragon. --AC
- Ah, right. Yeah, this one causes pretty much everything to stay tapped forever. Silly people. --Vitenka
- (PeterTaylor) I've considered making a deck around this, actually. It's not too hard to break the symmetry. The hard bit is getting two Yoseis and the Whispers out. (Well, and acquiring said cards in the first place).
- Heh heh heh... new version of Wrath of God. MTG: Final Judgement. Even wipes the Myojins. --FR
- It's a nice one. White has been needing this ever since indestructible. Too costly, though. --Vitenka (WWW1 would have been nicer)
Out of interest, how would MTG: Kira, Great Glass-Spinner affect MTG: Horobi?
(PeterTaylor) Targetting occurs when targets are chosen. However, targets are checked during resolution to ensure that they're still valid. The text on Kira is an ability: effects are created by spells or abilities.
- Not at all. --PT
- ISTM the additional text added by Kira is ambiguous. Does it apply per spell, or for just one spell per turn? --Bobacus
- It is written ambiguously, but the meaning is obvious. The first spell or ability that targets that creature, each turn, is gone. But since targeting happens when the spell is declared, not when it resolves (well, usually) MTG: Horobi would still go off. --Vitenka (ignoring several odd spells whose name I can't remembr but which target again during resolution)
- Does a constant ability like that not target itself, or the creature, all the time? --FR
- No, targetting is when an ability is activated, or a spell cast, and the text says to "target" something, and the player chooses an object of apporopriate type. The text on Kira is an effect not an ability, I think. --Bobacus
The Brothers Machine
It just occurred to me that you could have fun with MTG: Brothers Yamazaki on a MTG: Soul Foundry. It gets wonderfully silly with a MTG: Mirror Gallery in play, and isn't at all bad even without. Of course, once you're duplicating Legends on a Soul Foundry then you have possibilities like MTG: Seshiro the Anointed, which actually comes out quite similar to the Brothers Machine except it costs 6 rather than 3 but gets you a whole lot more cards when they hit (if they don't just kill the opponent straight out!). But the nice thing about the Brothers Machine is that it's cheaper and lets you have duplicates even before the MTG: Mirror Gallery shows up, while still being completely silly when the Mirrors come out... (On a similar note, has anyone got any MTG: Dual Nature? They just got rather more powerful with the new legend rule...) --AlexChurchill
- There are many, but MTG: Takeno would work with it too. And MTG: Godo for lots and lots of attack phases. --FR
- Another random thought, but what is the actual wording of the legend rule? Specifically, does it specify 'card'? Because if it does, you're laughing.
- Ho ho, you should be so lucky. See /CompRules 420.5e: "If two or more permanents with the same name have the supertype legendary, all are put into their owners' graveyards. This is called the "legend rule." If only one of those permanents is legendary, this rule doesn't apply." --AC
Summoning Station and Salvaging Station
This might be wishful thinking, but is there a card (permanent) that says, 'sacrifice a creature: gain two colourless mana'? I just thought that having an infinite mana loop without any land might be fun: said imaginary card and MTG: Summoning Station. Easy to combine with MTG: Voltaic Construct and MTG: Solarion, but that goes without saying. On the other hand, I suppose the pinchers wouldn't go to the graveyard and therefore wouldn't untap the station. So much for my perpetual motion device... --FR
I've just seen that MTG: Krark-Clan Ironworks does pretty much the same thing.
- The card you're after is MTG: Ashnod's Altar. Unfortunately the combo as described doesn't work: tokens *do* go to the graveyard, but because of the careful design of MTG: Summoning Station, the Pinchers are colourless, but not artifacts. You might have more luck with the MTG: Salvaging Station. It forces the artifact it resurrects to be noncreature, but there are ways round that, MTG: Chimeric Coils for example. (Or even MTG: March of the Machines! Yes, MTG: Salvaging Station plus MTG: March of the Machines plus a MTG: Chromatic Sphere in play or graveyard lets you draw your deck. Whereas MTG: Summoning Station plus MTG: Mycosynth Lattice lets you sacrifice an arbitrary number of creatures to whatever you like: MTG: Carrion Feeder, MTG: Spawning Pit, MTG: Sadistic Hypnotist... Or indeed MTG: Ashnod's Altar, to power your MTG: Voltaic Construct / MTG: Solarion shenanigans.) --AlexChurchill
- The Salavging-Machines-Chromatic will draw your deck rather slowly, unless you also have an effect giving all creatures haste--Edwin
- Like MTG: Mass Hysteria. --FR
- Or if you don't want to give it to your opponents too, MTG: Anger or MTG: Fervor. MTG: Lightning Greaves would also be an entertaining solution ("the Sphere puts on the boots! Again and again and again!"). However, in all cases you do need a fourth card, which is an irritating requirement. Nonetheless, thanks to Edwin for pointing out the flaw, as it's preferable to know. --AC
- There's a Standard deck based around just that. --Requiem
- Well, it's different in that KCI lets you sac artifacts, while MTG: Ashnod's Altar and MTG: Phyrexian Altar let you sac creatures. But otherwise, yes. --AC
Just a quick idea: the combo of MTG: Heartless Hidetsugu and MTG: Overblaze would work just as well with MTG: Furnace of Rath in play. The problem, apart from finding the cards I suppose, is making sure you have an odd life total and your opponent has an even one. I think the way to go is cheap direct damage: MTG: Lightning Bolt and MTG: Lava Spike come to mind, and MTG: Bile Urchin, although it would be better if it was red, obviously. --FR
- Getting yourself to odd or even life shouldn't be a problem with painlands. Good old-fashioned mana-burn could work too, but make sure to do it a phase before you activate MTG: Hidetsugu --CH. Although my preferred option to avoid killing oneself with Hidetsugu would be a simple MTG: Circle of Protection Red... For extra redundant extra redundancy on the doubling card to double the damage, you could use MTG: Gratuitous Violence as your doubler for extra redundancy. And even if you only get your opponent down to 1 life, I hear Red may have a few cards capable of dealing 1 damage to a player. --AlexChurchill
- I did wonder about the COP Red, but the problem with that is adding another colour: most of the cards to double the damage require two or three red mana, which could be problematic if you include white. --FR
Never play a nonland again, ever
Want a two-card lock that means your opponent can never play a non-land card ever again? In monowhite? With MTG: Staying Power in play, resolve MTG: Orim's Chant. MuHaHaHaHa. --AlexChurchill
- A similar effect occurs with MTG: Staying Power along with MTG: Stone Cold Basilisk, and enough guile to force said opponent to read said card. This has the added bonus of having happened in my presence, although it is less mono-white.
R&D's Secret Lair
To paraphrase MaRo on MTG: R%26D's Secret Lair (because I can't be bothered to look up the original quote) - "We have no idea what chaos we've unleashed with this".
So, what craziness can we come up with. ChrisHowlett, being possessed of poor old-card knowledge and creativity, is currently acting merely as facilitator; but I will put up two I've heard from MTG.com or other places.
MTG: Floral Spuzzem can cause a draw. Well, probably a draw. In a timed game, it's likely that the Spuzzem would just lose due to lack of time...
MTG: Revelation and MTG: Enter The Dungeon - bring a mirror.
Useful to note for this discussion is that if you follow an MTG: link to Gatherer, you can click on the different expansion symbols to see the different printings of a card
The Mirage MTG: Dark Ritual is a "Mana Source" so can't be countered. The 5th Edition MTG: Drain Life has you pay the X as the spell is resolving, which could be useful against a permission deck. MTG: Ancient Runes would greatly annoy someone trying to use an MTG: CoP Red. Anything that says "bury target (something) creature", like a Mirage or Tempest MTG: Dark Banishing, would probably cause your opponent to concede the game to prevent his card being deposited under large amounts of earth. Anything which has a disadvantage in the "discard phase" no longer has a disadvantage, because that phase no longer exists.
- Surely there's something in the rules that states that 'bury' should be interpreted as 'sent to the discard pile', isn't there? Does Secret Lair really read, 'take all rules texts completely literally? --FR
- Aye - the original rules for bury are "Destroy, may not be regenerated" I don't understand the reason spuzzem causes a lock. You can read what secret lair does by clicking the title - it just says "Play all cards without errata". Rules still work. Nice catch on dark ritual being uncounterable, but I think you'd have MUCH more fun playing with the older interrupt version. (Hah! I get an interrupt stack and you don't!) --Vitenka
- How many cards have you come across that can take decisions themselves about when to destroy artifacts? --CH
- *does insane happy-dance* I was right about something magic related! --FR
- No. R&D's Secret Lair does not revert the game to the ruleset of the cards as they were printed. Check out the [[FAQ(TIWDAWCC)]] on this card. "Bury" has no meaning in current CompRules, so you devolve back on it's normal English meaning. Likewise, Interrupts, which don't exist in Magic any more, can't be played. --SF
- Actually, "bury" is in the CompRules Glossary as an obsolete term. I suspect bury should be allowed, because the CompRules do say "the term "bury,"... meant to put a permanent into its owner's graveyard." (It probably gets round indestructible now ;) ) Although the same Glossary does also say "All interrupt cards are now instant cards."... Hmm... --AC
AlexChurchill has acquired a couple of the Lair, because I thought I must be able to use them for *something*. There are two or three broad categories of errata that it avoids:
- Case 1: "Broken card text deliberately erratad to fix it". Want to take infinite turns with a MTG: Time Vault as well as (MTG: Voltaic Key, MTG: Galvanic Key, MTG: Aphetto Alchemist, ...)? Want to cause a draw with MTG: Grip of Chaos? This is the way to do it. Use this to get unfair usage out of MTG: Waylay, MTG: Thawing Glaciers, and more. There are a number of insertions of "If you do" which the Lair would love to clear away; and the come-into-play sacrifices on things like MTG: Lotus Vale and can be more easily dodged, too. MTG: Temporal Adept becomes the new best friend of cards like MTG: Booby Trap, MTG: Second Chance, MTG: Planar Collapse, MTG: Defense of the Heart etc; land-bounce effects as a cost help out MTG: Lotus Vale, MTG: Balduvian Trading Post, and so on; and MTG: Pandemonium or (in some cases) MTG: Bloodshot Cyclops break MTG: Phyrexian Dreadnought, MTG: Flash, and more...
- Case 2: Terminology updates. The aforementioned bury and interrupts are some prime examples of this. Also you can now use MTG: Sleight of Mind to modify Revised edition MTG: Wild Growth (the ones that said "one green mana" rather than "G"). I'd probably also include in this category the completely pointless things that are now possible with things that say "any target" like early MTG: Prodigal Sorcerer. "I deal 1 damage to your Plains! Or to your table!"
- Case 3: Sixth Edition ruleset updates. Perhaps the most interesting case, to my mind. Almost every pre-6E / pre-Destiny card got erratad with 6E. So using the Lair, upkeep abilities must be done "During your upkeep" (but not necessarily at the start); MTG: Betrayal can be happily moved to your creatures, and MTG: Fire Whip moved to your opponents', without falling off; the instants or sorceries saying "cost: effect" like MTG: Carrion probably let you use the cost bit more than once to double the effect (quite scary in some cases); MTG: Ball Lightning now is only sacrificed at the end of the turn in which it was summoned (so if you phase it out or MTG: Stifle it, it sticks around indefinitely); etc... MTG: Berserk is particularly unfair: as if it wasn't powerful enough before, if you play it as written it has a MTG: Terminate in there for free as well (as written it has 2 targets!).
TBH, the effects of the Lair will just vary per card. Although in general you'll get better effects the older the cards. You'll have to look down a spoiler of old card texts like  to see what you can spot, I suspect.
I guess MTG: Oboro Envoy counts in case 1 as well, as well as all the old firebreathing cards that just say "R: +1/+0". But then again, looking at the difference between MTG: Canopy Dragon's Oracle wording and text, one could even try to argue that such effects don't specify which creature they affect and so don't do anything... at which point I think one has to invoke the "don't be a complete git" rule. (Even if it's extremely tempting to be overly literal when MTG: Alchor's Tomb instructs you to just "Use counters"...)
And of course, there's the very old local enchantments whose text says "target", like MTG: Lance, MTG: Paralyze(!), MTG: Puppet Master (!!)... Those could be fun. MTG: Puppet Master does actually function like a personal MTG: Lifeline with a random MTG: Hakim, Loreweaver effect thrown in for good measure, doesn't it? Scary.
And what about MTG: Aggression or MTG: Blight? Can I choose a new target when the last one gets destroyed? MTG: Curse Artifact gives you a free MTG: Oxidize every turn (or perhaps even two, depending on how you read it...)
MTG: Blessing becomes a white MTG: Captive Flame, in rather cool fashion. MTG: Earthlore, MTG: Forbidden Lore, MTG: Veteran's Voice or MTG: Mystic Might pump a creature infinitely, while MTG: Hot Springs prevents unlimited damage and MTG: Krovikan Plague deals it. MTG: Regeneration applies to any creature. And the ABU versions of MTG: Farmstead didn't have the once per turn clause, so a well as being able to divide the lifegain up amongst other players, you can do it to more than one player! Broken or what?
AlexChurchill can't figure out how MTG: Tourach's Gate is *meant* to work, even with the Oracle wording. Why would anyone sacrifice a Thrull to this thing? Because it goes away next turn if you don't. --CH But anyway, with the Lair around it will pump your creatures a lot more, although they'll die if you do it too much.
- Sorry, yes, of course. It looked like the upkeep cost was only set up as part of the Thrull-sacrificing ability! Well, perhaps with a Lair around you could have a shot at arguing that as well... Is anyone else finding the Lair reminds them of Kangaroo Court Magic? --AC
But perhaps the most fun one: MTG: Living Artifact seems to turn from being a MTG: Sun Droplet into a MTG: Giant Fan! (The ABUR versions, that is. The 4th Edition one just gives you infinite life.)
MTG: Memory Lapse looks like it ought to counter uncounterable spells, but only the Mirage version. The 6th/7th almost do (they're different to Oracle), but I don't think they will. Because if you're going to do A, and an effect says "do B instead of C", you'll do A, not B; and if you play an opponent's Buyback spell (using MTG: Psychic Theft or whatever), it goes to their graveyard, because buyback says "put it into your hand instead of your graveyard".
You can get a combat damage as well as their saboteur effects from MTG: Mindstab Thrull, MTG: Ophidian and MTG: Orcish Squatters, but nothing too exciting.
MTG: Mogg Bombers, on the other hand, now really love things that generate multiple tokens, or get multiple creatures into play at instant speed!
The oldest MTG: Soul Net wordings (A/B/U/R, and perhaps 4th) seem to suggest that they're setting up repeated triggered abilities, for the rest of the game, such that you gain 1 life every time a creature dies. For each 1 mana you spend. A leetle too strong? --AlexChurchill
Rifling through my binder, I find that my copy of MTG: Triskelion, being from Antiquities, is a source of infinite damage! Clarification: being from Antiquities and in Italian. For some reason it has the 4th ed rules. --CH
- Wow, excellent! :) --AC
Old mono artifacts can be activated as many times as you want (assuming they have an activation cost and don't say tap), so presumably you can stack up MTG: Chaos Orb activations like with MTG: Goblin Cannon --Edwin
That gives Requiem the idea of Chaos Orb + Darksteel Forge...
- Or Nevinyrral's Disk + Darksteel Forge... --Edwin
You mad, evil, inspired people. I particularly like that neither MTG: Nevinyrral's Disk nor MTG: Chaos Orb are sacrificed, so you can actually get multiple uses out of either of them with either a Lair or a Forge. The destruction obviously does nothing with the Forge around; or with Lair around, you can stack multiple Orb flips and have them do something. I salute your EvilGenius. --AC
Wand of the Elements
A somewhat obvious one, I feel, but, MTG: Wand of the Elements and MTG: Crucible of Worlds? --FR
- Not so much a combo... You just get to let Wand off every turn. Not bad, but there are better two-card combos. Though Wand is certainly something to put in Crucible decks... --Requiem
- I don't think I'd go that far. I'd say it is a common or garden combo: 2/2 flyers every turn are nothing to sneeze at (unless they've got a cold). Although as FR says it is a fairly obvious one: Crucible is obviously what everyone thinks of when they see the Wand. But my Crucible deck is guilty of including a Wand and a couple of islands. --AC
- I guess it's just the Johnny in me balking at combos that are that easy to pull off. --Requiem ^_^
- This led me, as I suppose was innevitable, tothe idea of using things like MTG: Azusa, Lost but Seeking and MTG: Budoka Gardener at the same time. More 2/2 fliers every turn. Although, in some ways that's a bit like an extended version of Meloku... --FR
- Well, MTG: Budoka Gardener doesn't let you get land out of your graveyard, even with the Crucible around. (Crucible lets you "play" them as if they were in your hand, whereas the Gardener "puts them into play", which is different.) And you'd need to find a way to untap the Wand. But Azusa does contribute nicely to the Wand / Crucible combo, in that you can use the Wand without setting back your mana development. Azusa seems to go well with most Crucible strategies, actually. --AC
Turbo blue acceleration with Energy Tap
MTG: Energy Tap + MTG: Scornful Egotist = 8 mana on potentially turn 4 in a mono-blue deck (plus your 3 remaining untapped islands). (There are also cheesier approaches with MTG: Myr Enforcer, but those are somewhat tainted by the associations of Affinity.) --AC
- (PeterTaylor) Surely that's 2 remaining untapped Islands. One to flip the Egotist, one to play the Energy Tap.
(PeterTaylor) MTG: Mox Lotus, MTG: Transcendence, two MTG: Naturalize / MTG: Disenchant / other ways of getting rid of an artifact and an enchantment and MTG: Platinum Angel will give you truly infinite life without requiring infinite choices or choices of infinite numbers. Float infinite mana, destroy the MTG: Mox Lotus, wait for mana burn. Then get rid of the MTG: Transcendence before anyone kills your Angel.
Silly Staying Power
I'm sure many, many people have thought about the wonderful possibilities of using MTG: Staying Power and MTG: Greater Morphling, perhaps in a deck with lots of instant combat tricks that suddenly become permanent. My new thought is, how about also using MTG: Concerted Effort? This would permananently give all your creatures most of the abilities you can give Greater Morphling, so long as you can keep the enchantments in play. Of course, this doesn't make it a game winner, and there are a lot of holes in the theory. Thoughts? --FR
- Staying Power is just broken in any number of ways. Consider its interaction with MTG: Orim's Chant / MTG: Xantid Swarm / MTG: Stone-Cold Basilisk. However, the three-card combo of MTG: Staying Power, MTG: Greater Morphling and MTG: Concerted Effort is rather nice in that any two cards of the three work well together. --AC
- Oh, and if you happen to be playing white green, MTG: Gabriel Angelfire would be interesting. True, it would only gain one power per turn, and I don't think rampage is covered by Effort, but still, it would be cheaper than paying for all the abilities. --FR (Is there some particular reason why Haste isn't covered by Effort? I would generally expect it to be.)
- Effort gives the abilities at the beginning of your turn, so making haste fit would need some retemplating. It would also be rather terrifying. --Edwin
What to do with Mindmoil
Funky card, but I'm having trouble finding uses. Granted, the cycle of Words from Onslaught (such as MTG: Words Of War) are quite attractive, but a little dull. So far my favourite combination has to be MTG: Mindmoil and one of MTG: Abundance or MTG: Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar. That's card selection! --CH
- It combo's - massively - with Dredge. --Vitenka
AlexChurchill was musing about what would go well with MTG: Mindmoil. It occured pretty quickly that MTG: Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind really enjoys having Mindmoil around, often even more than he likes MTG: Teferi's Puzzle Box. But what if your opponent's on 100 life... or you have six opponents? What you really want is a way to play lots of spells repeatedly, without diminishing your hand size too much, so that you keep the MTG: Mindmoil count high. Storm and Replicate are only played once, the other copies are just put on the stack - so neither of them would work. Isochron Scepter or Panoptic Mirror let you play a spell for free, but only once per turn.
MTG: Eye of the Storm, on the other hand...
So yes. The three-card, two-colour combo is MTG: Mindmoil; MTG: Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind; and MTG: Eye of the Storm. Never mind that any one of those three is insane on its own (in the "weird" rather than "good" sense). Put all three of them together with some instants and sorceries, and you get the ability to quite happily deal upwards of 60 damage divided anywhere you like, probably every turn. Because any time you play an instant or sorcery card, you Mindmoil your hand away (pinging for lots with Mizzy), and also get a huge number of Eye copies of similar things which you can also play, triggering a whole lot more Moiling and pinging.
Now I just need to think of some instants and sorceries that would be effective both beforehand (to find the pieces) and afterwards (maybe to trigger Niv-Mizzet). Some that would be cheap so I can cast them if I've spent most of my mana, but not ones that deal damage because my opponents can get them off the Eye also. I've not come up with much yet, but I'll keep MTG: Brainstorming...
- May I suggest [this little search]? Oh, and - if you ever pull this off against me, I may have to insist that you conduct all the steps in it as punishment... --CH
Beacons in Mirrors
This, I think, is actually just a case of me misreading my cards, but I was looking through my red-blue deck and took a closer look at MTG: Panoptic Mirror and MTG: Beacon of Destruction. My reading is that, should a beacon (of any sort) be imprinted upon the Mirror, it creates a copy of that beacon. The way I understand copy, it means a copy, metaphorical or otherwise, of the card itself, and not just of the effect. In this case it follows that said copy would be shuffled into the library at the point when the Mirror does its effect (Upkeep).
In short, what I'm asking is, does this combination in effect not only do the effect of the beacon every turn, but also put another beacon into the deck every turn? I realise this may not be the case, but I thought it would be great if it was. And if its not, could it be a use for R&D's secret lair? --FR
- If I understand it correctly, you do get to shuffle the copy it into your library, but since it's not a card it vaporises immediately. --Edwin
- (PeterTaylor) Not quite immediately. When state-based effects are checked.
- Which does give you the option of a free shuffle each turn, which could be useful if you're using MTG: Sensei's Divining Top. Unfortunately it's not compulsory, so you can't MTG: Donate such a Mirror to use MTG: Psychogenic Probe. --AC
- You could Donate MTG: Form of the Dragon for a similar effect. --Edwin
- Why can't it be a card? Is there something in the rules that says it can't? I'm thinking it would be an errata, but still... --FR
- CompRules 503.10 - "...A copy of a spell is itself a spell, but it has no spell card associated with it..." --CH
This card has been getting some attention as part of a two-card instant-win combo with MTG: Flame Fusillade. But its original intention was to take extra turns, and that's what I'm going to do with it. The rulings claim "Before the errata, there were a lot of tricks to getting infinite turns. The errata stops all of them.", eh? We'll soon see about that! You need to get time counters onto it now (going by its Oracle wording), and I'm certainly not going to skip turns to do that. I was hoping to be able to use MTG: Quicksilver Elemental and one of the [cards which can gain time counters], but unfortunately the only one with an activated ability to gain them is MTG: Tourach's Gate, and Quicky can never target that since if it's ever animated, it will fall off as a SBE. So I had to do it this way:
MTG: March of the Machines
MTG: Unstable Shapeshifter
MTG: Time Vault enchanted by MTG: Flickerform
MTG: Time Bomb enchanted by MTG: Flickerform
8 mana including WWWW
The idea is: Have the Shapeshifter be a Time Bomb and gets a time counter in your upkeep. Flicker both artifacts during your turn. During your end step, resolve the Vault first, so that the Shapeshifter becomes a Time Vault. Tap it and remove the time counter for an extra turn. Then, resolve the Bomb, so that in your new turn the Shapeshifter will untap and get another time counter, ready to repeat the endeavour. With infinite turns, you could win however you like. I suggest your library contain one MTG: Darksteel Reactor and one MTG: Obstinate Familiar. After all, you have the time.
This is a very... interesting card. I'm sure it deserves more than what I've done with it, which is sling it in a R/W/G deck. This needs more. I'm sure there are various things that could be done with it, but the two things that sprang to mind were MTG: Pariah's Shield and MTG: Vassal's Duty; perhaps MTG: Michiko Konda could be included as well. Any thoughts? --FR
- Generally some scary ideas there. I can see you MTG: Phytohydra attracting some removal pretty sharpish! Unfortunately, Michiko doesn't play well - you're never damaged if the Pariah's Shield is doing its stuff, so Michiko won't get upset at your opponent's permanents. --CH
- Yeah, With hindight, I really should have checked up on Michiko's rules before mentioning her ;) It just reminded me of her. Also, duty doesn't work either, although it does with Michiko. Can anyone else think of anything? --FR
- Actually, the Duty isn't too bad. It effectively reads "1: Prevent the next 1 damage that would be dealt to target legendary creature, and Phytohydra gets +1/+1". --CH
- Missed that one. So, dmage dealt to legendary creature redirected to you for 1 per 1 damage, then redirected to phytohdra for free, which gets +1+1 instead anyway. Nice trick. --FR
AlanLawrence discovered an insane combo with MTG: Phytohydra: MTG: Ion Storm. It reads: 1R: put a +1/+1 counter on Phytohydra. Or alternatively, 2RR: 2 damage to any target. (In characteristically silly fashion, he discovered this by taking control of /my/ MTG: Phytohydra, and only later drawing /his/ MTG: Ion Storm!)
In the absence of something sensible to suggest, there's that shapeshifter from Unhinged, who can turn into whatever you want before you play him, letting you get anything back from the graveyard, even if it isn't a creature (although how do you put an instant into play?). Then MTG: Cloudstone Curio to bounce him and do it again, perhaps.
- A silly thought that came to my mind for this would be with lots of MTG: Relentless Rats. Maybe sacrifice them all for something big, like a huge MTG: Shimasu the Bloodcloaked, and then bring them all back again. --FR
(PeterTaylor) Clearly there's a lot of potential here. One thing which comes to mind (and is Standard-legal) is MTG: Natural Affinity + MTG: Pyroclasm...
Any of the MTG: Earthquake variants are awesome here. MTG: Hammerfist Giant, MTG: Savage Twister, MTG: Warmonger, MTG: Pestilence... Or for a sillier take on the whole thing, MTG: Last Laugh. --AC
Insane Five-card combo
MTG: Soul Link, MTG: Nomad Mythmaker, MTG: Kitsune Mystic (flipped), MTG: Vulshok Sorceror and, the key card, MTG: Searing Meditation. Amusing, but ultimately really really improbable. --CH
- Is it really so improbable? The Mystic and the Mythmaker seem to me to be more... facillitators than actual combo components. Plus, while the sorceror is an ideal creature for the combo, there are others that could do it; probably just ones that would deal damage to others, rather than dealing it to themselves as well. You'd probably need to use golden wish or something like that, but the theory is sound enough. --FR
In a perfect world...
Why must obscure rules mock me so? All I wanted to do was have an Illusion token from MTG: Meloku or MTG: Volrath's Laboratory in play, cast MTG: Retraced Image, and reveal MTG: Illusion/Reality. It's not like I would have done much with it. I'd just play MTG: Mycosynth Lattice and MTG: March of the Machines so that I could attack with a 5/5 green and blue Instant Artifact Creature. I don't even care about the Lattice/March? land destruction thing. I'd be perfectly willing to have an MTG: Earth Surge in play to prevent that. But no, CompRules 212.5d must take away my dream. --Ultros
- Yes, I remember being gutted about the way that MTG: Splintering Wind could theoretically let you put a MTG: Splinter from your hand into play, were it not for the bane of all Johnnies, Rule 212.5d... --AC
- No, that wouldn't work anyway, since the name isn't exactly the same. The reason it would work with Illusion/Reality? is because when an effect checks whether a split card has a certain quality (sharing a name with a permanent in this case), the answer is yes as long as one of the halves has that quality. --Ultros
- *clicks link* *blink* Ah. I see they've changed the Oracle text of MTG: Splintering Wind. It /used/ to put MTG: Splinter tokens into play. Splinter and Illusion being the two creature types that were also names of instant/sorcery cards. Although it would be quite cool to get a MTG: Wiitigo into play using MTG: Voltrath's Laboratory and MTG: Retraced Image. --AC
- Whoa, they put text right on the cards now? I thought it was all kept in Oracle. Man, Splinter tokens. That's just crazy. --Ultros
- (PeterTaylor) Alex, you knew that they'd changed the Oracle text a couple of years ago when we were talking at dinner after the triple-Planeshift draft.
- In which case it would seem I knew it then, but don't know it any longer :) --AC
More tricks with names
Anyone for an evil WB mana-denial deck? The latest way to RFG all your opponent's basic lands of one name (a la MTG: Lifespark Spellbomb + MTG: Eradicate) is to combine [The Card With No Name] with MTG: Moratorium Stone. You don't need any blue mana - just discard the Nameless Dude to some useful effect in [black] or [white] (or, indeed, [red]).
I'd suggest starting a section here for cards that are particularly evil to combo with MTG: The Card With No Name (with whom it seems Gatherer still doesn't play happily), but it would probably be a sizeable selection of the [cards containing the word "named"] or ["same name"]... for example, MTG: Ęther Burst and MTG: Accumulated Knowledge are rather excessive with one or more of Mr Underscore in your graveyard. --AC
He works well with MTG: Bloodbond March, I'd imagine. --Edwin
Tutoring anything to hand, in Mono Blue
These days, Blue doesn't get unconditional tutoring to hand. Sure, there's MTG: Eerie Procession, but it only gets Arcane spells. The only example in extended of Blue searching for any card is MTG: Long-Term Plans, but that puts it 3rd from top!
Unless you also have MTG: Sensei's Diving Top out, that is...
- I hate to suggest it, but... MTG: Johnny, Combo Player?
I've been trying to think of things to do with this card. There are loads of possibilities, but one of the best things I can think of is to nearly kill it by making Saprolings, return it to hand and then play it again even harder due to the Saprolings. For the return to hand thing, MTG: Mark of Eviction could be used, since that gives good replayability, but I'm sure others could come up with things that are a) in either red or green or b) quicker. --FR
Could we find something involving MTG: Stalking Vengeance?
- The cycle of creatures in Betrayers with "at the beginning of your upkeep, return a <colour> creature you control to owner's hand would satisfy a. --Edwin
Yes, I've found myself wondering what to do with my copy of MTG: Ulasht. He clearly goes insane with MTG: Doubling Season, as does pretty much every card whose text includes both "counter" and "token". As Edwin says, MTG: Stampeding Wildebeests or MTG: Oni of Wild Places would work, as would MTG: Crystal Shard. MTG: Soul Foundry could be an amusing way of repeatedly putting Ulasht into play that also lets you turn every last counter on him into a Saproling token to double the next one's size. (Just don't combo Soul Foundry with Doubling Season: Ulasht is a Legend.) MTG: Nivojen, Heart of Progress works rather well with either Ulasht or his Saproling buddies, as do other Simic cards like MTG: Evolution Vat, MTG: Plaxcaster Frogling, MTG: Vigean Hydropon and MTG: Thrive.
Or to go really insane, get a MTG: Quicksilver Elemental or MTG: Experiment Kraj out, along with both MTG: Solarion and MTG: Ulasht (optionally also a creature which can pay to untap itself like MTG: Simic Ragworm). Multiply the number of counters on your shapeshifter by 16 or so, and then pull them off for tokens or damage. --AlexChurchill
I've tried twice to make a deck that really works with this card, but I think now I might have got it. After fetching Ideal, bring in MTG: Dovescape. No harm to you, and very hard to get rid of, also helps with any other enchantments you bring into play. MTG: Doubling Season, then maybe MTG: Day of the Dragons, pretty much any of the Words enchantments, but particularly MTG: Words of Wilding. I think this card is the one needed to really make Ideal work well. Anyone care to comment? --FR
- Well, given that people have been played Enduring Ideal in Standard tournaments, I don't think there's any doubt it can be made to work well. In the tournament decks, they use MTG: Form of the Dragon with MTG: Zur's Weirding and optionally MTG: Ivory Mask. But MTG: Dovescape along with MTG: Night of Souls' Betrayal or MTG: Meishin, the Mind Cage is pretty effective also. Personally, my casual Ideal deck fetches MTG: Opalescence, then MTG: Doubling Season, then puts MTG: Followed Footsteps on the MTG: Doubling Season and sits and laughs... I've won with an army of 2059 Seasons that way. --AC
Battle of Wits silliness
Fancy winning with MTG: Battle of Wits, but not having to find it in a 200-card library? Then why not start with a 60-card library. Just make sure those cards include MTG: Isochron Scepter and MTG: Research // Development. You don't even have to have the MTG: Battle of Wits there to start with :D --AC
Norin the Wary
Inspired by my pre-release 2hg pool with 2 copies of the useless pile of junk MTG: Norin the Wary in it, can anybody find any way of using him at all? --qqzm
- Well, CIP triggers could be fun (MTG: Pandemonium et al) --CH
- Any of the cards where you have to give something to your opponents in exchange - since you get him back. --Vitenka
- Hmm, yes. He doesn't quite work with casting MTG: Spawnbroker (since he'll hide when I cast the spell), but a MTG: Spawnbroker on a MTG: Soul Foundry works. MuHaHaHa. --AC
Two more ideas from the [MTGSalvation thread]:
1) MTG: Confusion in the Ranks. Eek!
2) Sac MTG: Protean Hulk, drop 4 MTG: Soul Wardens, MTG: Norin the Wary, 4 MTG: Ornithopter, and a 1 drop, for 36 life; then every time someone attacks or plays a spell, you get 4 life EOT if the wardens are stil alive. --AC
- I'd suggest combining 1) with MTG: Isochron Scepter. Style points for imprinting MTG: Twiddle, which lets you use Norin in each player's turn, even if they don't play anything or attack. --CH
And you thought the Hermit was deranged
Chatting with AlexChurchill, we discovered that a really powerful combo is enabled by the following cards. A randomly-generated Mistform Ultimus type to the first person who can see what we're doing. --ChrisHowlett
MTG: Grinning Totem, MTG: Goblin Fire Fiend, MTG: Mindslaver, MTG: Form Of The Squirrel, MTG: R&D's Secret Lair, MTG: Donate, MTG: Spectral Searchlight, (EDIT: MTG: Disenchant)
- Donate the Grinning Totem, Mindslaver your opponent, make them use Grinning Totem to get Form of the Squirrel from your library, tap Spectral Searchlight to make sure they have G available to play it. I know R&D's Secret Lair and Goblin Fire Fiend interact, but they do so in a way that makes the Fire Fiend's ability worthless (players are never able to block, so they never get the chance to do so). I still don't see a way around Form of the Squirrel's "Creatures can't attack you" ability, and no reasonable interpretation would cause the Squirrel token to end up blocking even when Goblin Fire Fiend wasn't attacking. --SadisticMystic
- Whoops, yes, we need a MTG: Vedalken Orrery and a second MTG: Donate (or just a MTG: Disenchant) in there also. But I disagree that "no reasonable interpretation" would result in the Squirrel token blocking. After all, the whole flavour of Form of the Squirrel is that the player becomes a 1/1 Squirrel token. If the player has to block (as per the printed wording), then surely if the player is a 1/1 Squirrel token, that token has to block? --AC
- I think the "no reasonable interpretation" was directed at the "if the Goblin Fire Fiend wasn't attacking" --Edwin
- Oh, yes, that would make sense. In that case, fair enough :) --AC
- I think that's close enough, given the error in the original puzzle. You now get to see that Mistform Ultimus is a Minor Minotaur Priest! --CH
Just quickly, it occured to me that a great way to keep MTG: Liege of the Pit in play is to have at least two MTG: Nether Traitor although I imagine that there are many other things you can use with the same effect. --FR
- Double MTG: Myr Servitor is a rather cheaper way to get the same effect, but I like the way you're thinking. --CH
- My problem is, since starting FNM I pretty much only think in terms of Standard. Plus, a lot of my friends treat Mirrodin block as taboo and will not even speak of it. --FR
Play Your Entire Collection, All at Once
Warning: this is a combo which starts out with MTG: Eye of the Storm and MTG: Mind's Desire, which is pretty much an auto-win combo anyway as long as the rest of your deck has some instants or sorceries in it. But this takes it to a whole new level.
Specifically, in a blue-red deck like most MTG: Eye of the Storm decks are, have something like an MTG: Arc-Slogger eat most of your library, either before or after the MTG: Eye of the Storm arrives. Then cast Development from MTG: Research // Development. The Eye removes that card, and it goes on the Eye, and then you can play a copy of it. This time, play the MTG: Research half. Add four cards from your collection, including at least one instant or sorcery. Then cast MTG: Mind's Desire. The storm copies go on the stack and let you play all four cards from your library. The instant or sorcery triggers the Research-then-Desire chain, and the whole thing repeats. Add in a Vedalken Orrery to get your entire collection of nonlands all on the stack at once.
Battle of Wits, For The Stupid
I have no idea why this crawled into my head....
MTG: Look At Me, I'm R&D, MTG: Opalescence and MTG: Followed Footsteps can be combined to allow you to win using MTG: Battle Of Wits without the hassle of carting 200 or so cards around. --Edwin
- I approve! MTG: Epic Struggle may be quicker, though. --CH
- Epic Struggle wins in 5 iterations of Followed Footsteps assuming no other creatures: the original sets 16->17, then copies set 1->2, 2->4, 4->8, 8->16, and finally 20->3 with 7 creatures in play. Battle of Wits is only 3 turns slower, partly because it doesn't need that 16->17 hack to avoid setting up a circular loop (and I'm fairly sure you're going to have a library with -56 or more cards in it...) MTG: Chance Encounter is a turn faster than Epic Struggle, 1->2, 8->10, 2->4, 4->8, 10->0. I wonder what happens if you try to hack away the numbers on MTG: Now I Know My ABC's: 1->2, 2->4, 4->8, 26->18 covers exactly the number of letters in the four cards involved, but how is the statement "all eighteen letters of the English alphabet" supposed to be interpreted? --SadisticMystic
The Dreaded Anti-Combo
I'm not sure I should post this here, but I will anyway, because it occured to me and I need some clarification.
Are my fears over the interaction between MTG: Doubling Season and MTG: Lotus Bloom founded? Or, does DS not affect the bloom, because suspend rules involve removing the spell from play? --FR
- Luckily for you, Doubling Season doesn't affect the number of time counters you put on a suspend card, since it only notices counters put onto permanents, which are only in play. It would, however, double the number of time counters on a vanishing card like MTG: Calciderm or MTG: Aven Riftwatcher. --AC
- Furthermore, you can get something closer to what you were predicting by combining Doubling Season with MTG: Dark Depths. Not only do you have to remove twice as many ice counters, but when you're done with that, you get two (legendary) tokens instead of one... --SM
Lots of Mana?
I don't know if this would work, but I can't think of any particular reason why it shouldn't. MTG: Cloudpost and MTG: Conspiracy. --FR
- Because Locus isn't a creature type. Unless it is now. --SF
- Damn. FR
- Indeed, it doesn't work because Locus is a land type, the way that Shrine and Aura is an enchantment type and Equipment is an artifact type. You can't set Conspiracy to any of those either. (Which is just as well, because Aura would cause all sorts of complications.) The simplest way to power up MTG: Cloudpost is with MTG: Vesuva. If you want to get wackier, then may I recommend MTG: Nature's Revolt and MTG: Followed Footsteps? :) --AlexChurchill
Doubling Season Again...
Another idle thought. How's MTG: Doubling Season with MTG: Sekki, Seasons' Guide equipped with MTG: Pariah's Shield as a way to really annoy your opponent? --FR
- Pretty good, but you're not trying hard enough. I have an infinite damage combo in my Doubling Season deck, featuring Season, Sekki and MTG: Blasting Station (plus any other creature, of course). --CH