GamesEvening/MagicTheGatheringProblem

Update: We are presently not playing Magic before 10pm. This seems to be working.
Unofficially, AlexChurchill would like to suggest that trading or excessive discussion of MtG cards be kept to a minimum before 10pm also. Let's not push the limits.

It goes like this:

Sometime in 2001, a group of friends used to play MagicTheGathering together, including but not limited to AlexChurchill, AngelaRayner, and MoonShadow. Certain people (*blushes*) got rather obsessed with the game, to the extent that the friends weren't playing any other games. So MoonShadow had this great idea of holding a regular weekly GamesEvening, at which MagicTheGathering would be banned, in order to give other games a chance. AngelaRayner volunteered to host this evening, and so the GamesEvenings started.

This went on for a while, growing in popularity and in the variations of games played. The things which the friends did together when they met gradually changed, as such things do. People stopped playing Magic much when they were around each other. Time moved on. The reason for the Magic restriction became irrelevant, as nobody was playing Magic at any point; but nobody played it at GamesEvening either.

Until late 2002, when one or two people at GamesEvening asked if they could play Magic. AlexChurchill agreed, reckoning that the restriction had been necessary to start with but was irrelevant now. And people liked the game, and other people thought "Oh, I'll bring my decks along..."

And now, in spring 2003, Magic is threatening to take over GamesEvening again. Is this a bad thing? Some people think so. It does consume rather more of the players' concentration than some games we play. I think a significant part of the objection might also be just that extreme dominance of any one game is a bad thing (in Microsoft monopoly-style).

Ah, the variation with Steve Ballmer as Park Lane, and Bill Gates as Mayfair? --qqzm

: When MikeJeggo saw just the above line in diff, he assumed that some refactoring to MorningtonCrescent was going to be in order...

The question arises, what do we propose to do about it? Well, reintroducing the strict "No Magic at GamesEvening" rule is one option, but seems rather extreme. The idea was proposed of booking a separate room for Magic playing on GamesEvening, but one flaw with this idea is that GamesEvening is a social time, for people to meet and be around one another. Time-limits on when Magic can be played are another idea - like, say, only after 10:30pm.

I feel I might not have communicated the problem effectively, so if people have any clarifications or thoughts on that, then those would be appreciated also.

What do people think?

MoonShadow, for one, speaking as one who has played little but Go at GamesEvening for some months now, does not see a problem. GamesEvening has been too large for some while now for everyone coming to be able to participate in the same game; and it is most definitively not the case that nothing but Magic is played. MoonShadow would like to make a case that as things currently stand, everyone is getting to play games they want to play, and there is a variety of games actively happening (as opposed to just being available) even if any one person may choose to spend the evening playing just one game. If this has not been your experience - i.e. if there has been a time when you wanted to play a game but couldn't because *everyone* was busy playing Magic and unwilling to consider anything else - please speak now! - if no-one responds, MoonShadow asserts that Magic is not currently a problem.

AR - There have been times, usually later in the evening, when I've discovered this to be a problem. Alex's posting of the issue on the Wiki is due to a number of complaints I've had from a number of individuals that Magic is again taking over the evening. I'm in favour personally, either of somebody suggesting a separate Magic playing club or limiting the time that Magic can be played for or proposing that we book another room and have Magic playing go on else where. Due to the nature of Magic, it seems to negatively exclude (more than some other games that are not played so frequently) those not interested in learning how to play. I would also add that the social nature of games evening is diminished by playing games like Magic that cannot be interrupted. I realise that this is common to a number of games, but due to a high turnover of other games being played, it does not usually manifest itself as such a problem. I would add that it might not appear to be a problem to those who leave the evening relatively early, but later on, it seems that the only game that is played is Magic. Obviously, suggesting a later time for Magic playing would emphasise this issue, but at least people would know when to go home!

AR: I'm aware that my comments could be constructively criticised. It is possible to suggest that all games exclude those people who don't want to play them. It is also possible to suggest that any game that requires concentration cannot be interrupted and thus lessens the opportunity for social mingling. Fair enough. All I'd say is that for some reason, Magic seems to drag these issues into the foreground.

Emperor has only been to one GamesEvening, but there was plenty to do in the short time I was there - Magic certainly didn't seem to be dominating things (but I can see that it might - there was a lot of magic-conversation going on too)

TheInquisitor is probably a guilty party - I normally aim to turn up at 8, play something interesting with the group, and then have a couple of rounds of magic at the end. In this case, I arrived and the only person free was Colin, who suggested we play. So far as I know, it isn't a problem, and I have to admit I'd be slightly put out if Magic were banned - I hadn't realised the origins of GamesEvening were specifically to avoid Magic, although I knew it was at one point banned...

(PeterTaylor) In favour of MtG, it is usually played two-player and so a round lasts only ~20 minutes. I have been to GamesEvenings where I turned up at 21:30, watched the only game going on (gen. 6 players) for an hour and a half, and left. In no such case has the game in question been MtG.

M-A has encountered the same situation. The thing is, though, you'll never have a situation that's perfect for everybody without having rules that many people wouldn't like, such as "Only games that take under 20 mins may be started before 8pm, so that latecomers can join in somthing."

(PeterTaylor cont.) This week, I think more time was spent trading MtG cards than playing the game. I estimate that about 1/3 of that was because I brought along a colleague who had various interesting cards, and consequently several people wanted to trade with him. The remaining trading was also far above background levels. If it carries on thus perhaps trading should be restricted, and then it will be easier to properly evaluate the effect of playing MtG on the evening.

SunKitten: Could we not have a compromise - a different area of the room, say? That would separate out Magic so it didn't feel so omnipresent (I noticed it last week but I don't have a problem with it although I can see why people do), but it wouldn't exclude the Magic players. And, out of interest, what do people think about the possibility of a roleplaying game going on during a GamesEvening? That is longer-lasting and more exclusive by nature than any other game played.

TheInquisitor: Magic, being a 2 player game, sort of fits in nicely in random corners, time and space-wise. I have to say, however, that people trading cards is possibly more of a problem - being tedious to watch, if nothing else. I would have refrained, except that I only see about two thirds of those people at GamesEvening. Given comments made by various people (Chris, Colin, etc) I suspect that more will occur next week. You might well be justified in banishing trading of cards to a corner, or to 11-12 only, or similar.

: TheInquisitor: Responding separately to the RPG question. Would this be a case of 4-5 of you (us?) playing in one corner for the evening, while GamesEvening went on around you, or did you plan something in an open drop-in format? The one-offs CURS runs work quite successfully on a 'get a GM, get 3+ players, do something that lasts 8-12' principle. They don't try for continuity or an ongoing plot-arc.
: Possible issues:
: 1. Is it to be exclusive? If so, that possibly makes it inappropriate to games evening. If not, RPGs can run on the basis of players only turning up to some sessions, and possibly only parts of them - but not all RPGs will work like that. If you were prepared to run it in that fashion, then it would a) work, but b) get very bogged down with people coming and going, and dropping out for 5 minutes to trade magic cards (or discuss nokkyquotes, or whatever).
: 2. Is it really a feasible place to run it? I worry that we'll end up with a group of people trying to concentrate over the background chatter, and occasionally turning heads by saying something particularly unlikely, loudly, in a quiet period. This depends very much on style. A 'serious' roleplaying game probably just wouldn't work, while something cinematic or comical or 'fun' (which I suspect describes the game you had in mind) would be okay with disruptions. The 'secret masters of the universe' style of game (other PCs are the main antagonists, mostly diceless, lots of negotiation and intrigue) would probably work the best, but doesn't really fit the system/setting you were looking at.
: Anyway, I don't mind any way around, and might be interested in playing (hopefully Amber is moving to Mondays, so I could be there most weeks) - but I'm not sure it's the best way to actually run it.

: MoonShadow: I was wondering about running the RPG on a fortnightly basis for part of SaturdayCoffee (extending the entire thing to 3-4 hours rather than the present 2 on those days; those not participating in the RPG just head off when they normally would, as the RPG session starts around them). Also, if trading of Magic cards is going to be banished somewhere, why not banish it to ToothyWiki? Trades could be arranged online, in subpages of the appropriate users' homepages, and only the actual swapping cards done in to GamesEvening. That is, if people are willing to type out some of the contents of their "for trade" folders..

Sally: I think an RPG with games evening people could be great fun, just not at games evenings. GE is nice and relaxed and you can wander round and chat to people, and swap round who's playing what with who, whereas roleplaying is a very different thing with a different feel to it, and could monopolise a whole group of people for most of the evening. Most of the role players at GE are roleplaying at least one other night of the week already, and it's not as though we couldn't all meet up on a different night for a roleplaying game with gamesevening people, I just think it would spoil the atmosphere and the point of Games Evening a bit.

On the Magic issue I definitely don't feel we should banish these poor sad people to another room, as I enjoy seeing them all but wouldn't want to be stuck in a magic only room... if they could organise another time they got to play magic other than just at games evening then maybe they wouldn't be so keen to do nothing but magic when they get the chance. To be honest, I don't see a problem with it in moderation... but a ban on trading could be a Good Thing TM Also the problem with Magic tends to be it feels a bit of a two player "either you know how to play it or you don't" thing, now we're getting more games of more than two people and the people who want to learn can I can see it being less of a problem.

: TheInquisitor: Trading magic on toothywiki: Entering trade rares, no problem, I could do it in 2 minutes. That'a a good idea. But the rest? I certainly trade them on a regular basis (I'm busy building 'lite' decks at the moment, since they're nearly as much fun to play with (compared to my other decks, not necessarily compared to Spike decks) and much easier to build). It would take a little while to put all that in. Is there some sort of automatic cataloguing software around which will produce lists in a sensible format? I'm sure such must exist, but I wouldn't know where to look... I dread to think how much of Alex's time it would take up, too.

: For those categories (where category is combination of edition and rarity) in which your collection has too many cards to enter, you could always read people's lists of cards they really want rather than publishing a list of cards you have. - MoonShadow

Kazuhiko is somewhat amused to note that a page that started with worries as to M:tG being overpowering and taking over have turned into discussions of the technicalities of card trading on ToothyWiki...

: AlexChurchill laughs out loud at this :)