This is a Duplicate Limited format. Since all players will be proxying cards anyway, the overhead is low to allow all players to create decks from the same card pool. The procedure is as follows:
Obtain 120 cards of Generator output.
Players between them agree 30 to discard (for being over- or under-powered) and agree types, costs, and P/T if applicable for the 90 others. Abilities which boil down to doing nothing or being purely self-destructive (see the "Amulet of When you Really Need a Mana Sink" below) should be removed, as may some other abilities from cards with excessive amounts of text, if all players agree. Wordings should be adjusted to fit Eighth Edition templating rules.
The finalised 90 cards to build from are published somewhere visible to all players.
Then each player must build a 40-card Limited deck using any number (probably around 20) of the generated cards, a maximum of 4 regular Magic cards, and any amount of basic land. Should we enhorse Highlander rules - only one of each card allowed - or allow four of each? Or perhaps maximum of two of any given card?
When players have built their decks, they play them against one another in some usual format. (Swiss duels, or multiplayer of some flavour.)
I really, really want to try this. If we can manage it by end of term, that'd be good. Maybe release the card list, discuss on Wiki or at GE, build in spare time, play at GE? --CH
Also - is 60 cards too small a pool? Might we want to generate 100, and build from 80? --CH
Hmm, you may be right: a typical sealed pool is 5 boosters' worth, isn't it, which is 75 cards. In order that there be several plausible decks to make from the cardpool, we may want more than that (although this will be counteracted if we allow two or four of each card per deck). The problem will be agreeing details for them all - quite a time-consuming task. Amended numbers. --AC
StuartFraser points out that we have Invasion/Planeshift?/Apocalypse? limited to play as well, so there's a "free time" issue here...
Hence the GE comment. I would suggest that if we want to get this running, then whenever someone's bored they run a chunk of card from the generator; suggests type and cost and P/T if appropriate for each card, optionally comments on the existing cards and tacks a note next to any cards they think should be dropped. When we hit 120, we drop the 30 with the most drop requests, and go from there. Shouldn't take too long... --CH
Creature? When ~this~ is returned to its owner's hand, destroy target permanent
CH: 1UB. Wizard 1/1
Nope; WUB for "destroy target permanent", due to flavour considerations. --SF
AC concurs, except I think that at WUB you could inflate it to a 2/2. Particularly as that trigger is relatively hard to trigger.
Artifact? Tap an untapped creature you control: put target card in your graveyard into your hand and return target black creature to its owner's hand
CH: Got to be expensive. 6? Could also be Green or White enchantment
Broken. Especially in limited. Mass-recursion just doesn't exist, especially not with an added bonus. --SF
AC: Yes, bin it.
Artifact? Pay 3 life, Sacrifice a permanent: counter target spell or ability
CH: Reasonable. 3. Also possibly Enchantment: UB
See MTG: Null Brooch; so more than 3. But either type is valid, as is creature, actually.
Ok, agree. Not much more though, as the cost is steeper for a more versatile counter. 4 or 1UB ench.
Artifact? When ~this~ comes into play, you may Sacrifice ~this~. If you do, unless any player pays 1 life, you lose 3 life
CH: Veto. Pointless except for storm and affinity. AC: This could be an effectively vanilla creature if we need them. It has a certain Goblinish feel... Artifact? All nontoken creatures with toughness greater than 2 gain protection from facedown creatures with both power and toughness greater than 7 All nonblack enchantment are enchantments as well as their types
CH: Veto. Find me a facedown creature with P/T >7. And as for the second...
Possible to manage, but difficult.
NH: Could be a vanilla creature.
Instant or Sorcery? you lose 5 life
CH: Veto. Creature? Whenever a permanent target opponent controls comes into play, you may pay UB. If you do, ~this~ deals 4 damage to target creature or player At the beginning of your upkeep, unless an opponent sacrifices a tapped permanent, exchange control of target permanent you control and target permanent of the same type target opponent controls
Instant or Sorcery? Flashback 3GGGG target player may search his or her library for a card with converted mana cost less than or equal to 2, reveal it, and remove it from the game. If that player does so, shuffle that library afterwards. CH: Hmm. Nothing to do once it's removed. Yes. Could use it for mana thinning, maybe as an instant for G; but still limited use. Could bin it. --AC Enchantment? T: all creatures get +4/+4
CH: Nice. White, certainly, if it remains as Enchantment, but tapping is an unusual requirement for Enchs. Could be artifact. CMC of 5? AC suggests a Creature - Soldier Lord, maybe 2WWW for a 2/2 since it can effectively be a 6/6 Wall. Note also that it's *all* creatures, not just yours: while still very powerful this makes it more situational. ''Is this going to be the assumed "T: Creatures get +4/+4 until end of turn", or the as generated "T: Creatues get +4/+4 (this effect doesn't end at end of turn.). The former involves modifying generated text (as it could have generated the "until EOT" if it had been in the mooe) while the latter is a little ugly. Note, through, that it could be worded slightly better as: "T: Put a heroism counter on ~this~. Creatures get +4/+4 for each heroism counter on ~this~." without too much lossage. I think I'll vote for the latter. --JW ''Also making him a Soldier Lord implies that he only pumps Soldiers. How about "Soldier Legen"--ahem--"Legendary Creature -- Soldier" instead?
Instant or Sorcery? ~this~ deals X damage to target creature, where X is the number of red creature in play
Instant or Sorcery? destroy any number of target untapped permanents target opponent controls
CH: Yikes. Sorcery - Maybe 5RB, since opponent can tap in response?
Except you're blowing up enchantments with red/black cards again. I would suggest 6WB, pricing it alongside the Winds cycle from Prophecy. --SFSeems fair --AC
Instant or Sorcery? each player gains 3 life
CH: White inst, but seriously underpowered even at W. Consider MTG: Healing Salve PeterTaylor suggests "0. You may play ~this~ only if you control a Plains".
StuartFraser prefers the slightly clunkier "W. If you control a plains, you may pay 0 instead of this card's mana cost"
Do we allow this wording, since the generator couldn't produce it?
Certainly. See the note at the top about correcting wordings to 8E templating: in some cases this will involve changing the wording to something the generator couldn't produce. As long as it's just cost and characteristics that we're choosing, that's allowed. --AC
Creature? At the beginning of all players' combat step, you may pay 3. If you do, regenerate all blue creatures
Green enchantment, maybe green creature. Possibly a white one; given non-enemy colourness, although regeneration is mostly a green ability. Not entirely sure of mana cost. Blue creatures are notoriously bad. --SF
CH: I reckon 2W - Cleric - 1/2. Would be bird but for lack of Flying
AC reckons this is fair. It's not a very strong ability, but it could be useful. I wouldn't object to boosting the card's stats a bit but it's fine as is.
Creature? T, Discard a card from your hand: add 1 to your mana pool Sacrifice ~this~: destroy target black creature
The abilities ensure that the card is out of flavour - (1) is Red, (2) is White. RW for a 2/1 maybe. --SF
Enchantment? All Elves are artifacts as well as their types
Artifact. Enchantments don't make things artifacts. But probably veto, because it just won't be any use in the format. --SF
AC: This could be a nearly-vanilla creature if we need them. Artifact creature sounds fine, something like a Steelsower Golem, about 1/3 for 3 (shouldn't be too beefy because otherwise everyone would just play it anyway). And I'm not sure it'll do *nothing* in the format, just not very often.
I think there are far, far too many artifacts here already. This is *not* Mirrodin block, people! In this case there is a reasonable argument for it to be artifact, although 1B (Phyrexian Machinist?) seems OK as well. --SF
Enchantment? Whenever a Cleric deals damage, you may return a card from your graveyard into hand
Ooh, wonderful! Even flavour is good, except it should say "creature card". If so, 3W. Otherwise, a tad broken. --SF
But, but, it works with Clerics! ...And it's not much of a stretch, given white already has creature-, artifact- and enchantment-recursion... --AC, who actually doesn't mind that much if it does turn green
Artifact? Whenever a nonwhite creature deals damage, target player may put all creature cards from hand into play
PeterTaylor thinks this is way too powerful, and suggests changing "damage" to "combat damage to a player" as a bare minimum. Also "all creature cards" would require the player to reveal their hand, in which case this should be stated; the alternative is "any number of creature cards". AC agrees with the second point, but I think part of the point here is that we play or ditch the cards we get, we don't use them as "inspiration" for our own cards. I amgree this has major problems independent of the rules issues... although I suppose you could compare it with MTG: Tooth and Nail. At 8 mana this would be strong but perhaps not overpowered.
Erm, Tooth and Nail isn't repeatable. Then again, this doesn't search your library. Yeah, this is probably OK; although I'd price it at 6GG or 10. --SF
Agree with 6GG. Will probably only go off once. --CH
Artifact? 1: gain control of target land until end of turn All blue enchantments are artifacts as well as their types AC: Seems fair. Artifact 2, or enchantment 1U. Agreed --SF
CH: Hmm. Makes for a terrifying lock, actually. In your upkeep I'll grab all your lands, at the effective cost of 1 - unless you take mana burn by tapping first.
AC: Mmm... good point, I guess. The user does need more mana sources than the target, but in those situations it's nastier than MTG: Standstill. Maybe this card would be best binned?
''JWA: I liked it at first, too, but after a week's rumination, suspect that there's too many problems. Bin it.
Creature? When ~this~ is put into a graveyard from play, return target tapped Elf to its owner's hand AC: Elf 1G 2/2, or perhaps Beast 4G 4/4 The Elf --SF
Creature? All artifacts are creatures with power and toughness equal to their converted mana cost as well as their types Sacrifice a unblocked creature: target creature with power less than or equal to 4 gets +4/+3 AC: Perhaps a Neurok Marching Band, 3UU 2/2
Neurok? Firstly, /me shoots Alex for taking flavour from Mirrodin, which is about as boring and lifeless a plane as can me imagined, Secondly, the card would be Vedalken not Neurok if it existed. Thirdly, splashy permanent effects like that tend to go on Legends. So....Jhoira, Zhalfrin Artificer. Cost and p/t are fine. --SF
But you don't have the "March" reference then... Ahem, yes, sounds good --AC
Um... The generator forgot "until end of turn" again. Do we really want +4/+3 counters? --JW
Artifact? ~this~ comes into play with 1 charge counters on it BBB, remove any number of charge counters from ~this~: you put that many 2/2 red Bird creature creature tokens with haste into play AC: Grr, the Birds should have flying. Oh well, this is what it's given us. Cabal Roost as an Artifact 0, or Vulshok Falconer as a Creature - Barbarian, 2R 2/2
Or Barbarian Cavalry with some flavor text about how the Barbarians ride Ostriches... --JW
Off-coloured activation costs on a Mirrodin block card? Hmm....Minotaur Falconer. Again, I have no objections to your actual p/t or cost. --SF
Except the very strong objection to it being an artifact, and a request that Alex decrease he probability with which this throws out artifacts. Artifacts are not supposed to be ubiquitous --SF
Um, there's a reason why that question mark is there. It doesn't know what kind of permanent it should be. Artifact, enchantment and creature abilities are nearly interchangeable. This will still give some "enchanted...", "equipped..." or "put a +1/+1 counter on this" effects, but for the most part choosing the permanent type is meant to be our role. --AC
Instant or Sorcery? unless an opponent pays 1 life, you put 7 2/2 Beast artifact creature tokens into play AC: That would be "target opponent loses 1 life" then. Weak at an instant for B or G.
NH: This would fit into the cycle of zero-cost spells if you need it to.
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, put a 1/1 blue Merfolk creature token into play Sacrifice a Merfolk: destroy target permanent Pay 1 life, Sacrifice a land: you gain 3 life 1WW: add 1 mana of any one colour to your mana pool Whenever a nonmulticoloured creature deals damage to a player, you may pay 2B. If you do, you put 6 3/3 red Wizard creature tokens into play You may play ~this~ any time you could play an instant. All Zombies become Dragons in addition to their other types
AC: Ummm... kill the second and fifth abilities (way overpowered, and not enough room). Then it might be a Merfolk Nursery at 3UU or so, with several random irrelevant abilities. Unless you kill 1 and 5 but keep 2: making it a Fish Cannon for maybe 1UB. I think we kill 6 if we're still running out of room, but I like Merfolk Nursery...(if you're keeping to your strange liking for post-Weatherlight flavour, they should be Cephalids or Wizards, because Merfolk have been zotted). --SF Nuh-uh, no functional changes to the cards if the wording is legal. I like both Weatherlight and later flavour, anyway. Merfolk are better than Cephalids: I reduced the number of creature types still further to increase tribal interactions, and so no more Cephalids will occur but Merfolk and Wizards will. --AlexChurchill CH: Agree with Nursery. JW: Note that, as generated, you get all the tokens.
Creature? you may play artifact spells by paying 'Pay 1 life' instead of their mana cost "Demonic Smith"? In an environment of overpowered effects using high costs to balance them, a multiple alternate-cost granter may be a bit too strong. I think this would have to cost around 5BB, although it could happily be a 3/5 or 5/2 if so. --AlexChurchill
Iff we reduce the currently-ridiculous number of Artifacts, this is OK. Otherwise, bin it. --SF
See answer above. There are only a ridiculous number of artifacts if we decree them to be so. --AC
Artifact? Discard a card from your hand, Pay 1 life: unless an opponent pays 2 life, put a +1/+1 counter on up to 2 target black creatures Equip: X black mana, where X is the number of white permanent in play Equipped creature gets +1/+1
AC: Unholy Scimitar or some more flavourful name, about 3 to cast. CH: Sounds fine
Erm, is "put a +1/+1 counter on up to 2 target black creatures" the right wording? It sounds like you're cutting the counter in half or something.
I guess it should say "on each of up to 2". It means do that to each one - it'll say "distribute" if it means share that number total. --AC
Creature? Pay 2 life: ~this~ deals 4 damage to target creature or player. Creatures damaged this way can't be regenerated. AC: Um, no. "I win the game unless you've dealt me at least 10 damage"? Veto. CH: Ditto
Enchantment? At the beginning of each player's main phase, put a 4/3 blue Bird creature token with flying into play B, sacrifice any number of Birds: destroy that many target green creature AC: Suggest Spire of the Ravens, 7UB. Or perhaps it's just too strong, to get two big flyers each round? My instinct is that it's okay for a permanent costing 9 to have a swingy effect, but I'm happy to be disagreed with...
Since when are Ravens blue? Or predatory? Mana cost is about reasonable for that ability, yes, maybe 6UB (eight mana is standard for "I win the game" cards, I think). --SF
I wasn't sure what an appropriate bird name would be. Alternatives welcome. --AC
Creature? When ~this~ is removed from the game, put a 2/2 colourless Legend creature token into play T: any number of target black creatures get -3/-1 AC: Memorial Martyr, Creature - Cleric, 2W, 2/1 ?
Reasonably effective removal. Might be a tad cheap at 2W, since it can take down X/1 creatures and 3/2 creatures blocking without dying. --CH
AC: Only if they're black, though, so I don't think it's too bad? *nods* --SF
JW: Another omitted until end of turn... I'm only noticing these because I'm templating them to 8th Ed. wording; I scanned right by the first time I read the set. I'm starting to think we should bend our rule and add a few duration clauses, lest the set becomes overrun with various counters. Instant or Sorcery? Affinity for Wizards regenerate target Bird AC: Pretty, but pretty useless. It would be weak at an instant for W (or G --SF). Could be binned for uselessness (which is a pity, because Affinity for Wizards could be a great ability).
Enchantment? 4WUBRG: untap target Wall and gain control of it (This effect doesn't end at end of turn). It gains haste until end of turn. AC: Um... yeah... If you make it a creature then it might be more useful. Passionate Architect, 1W 2/2 or W 1/1? :I love the gaining of haste... Either suggestion seems reasonable. --CH
W 1/1. There has to be at least one. --SF(Agree --AC)
Instant or Sorcery? any number of target creatures with toughness greater than or equal to 4 become Goblins until end of turn AC: Veto - useless. This thing sometimes creates very simple cards, but it does seem to heavily favour huge complex ones. Might I suggest tweaking it to make it throw out a few more "3/3 does nothing special" type things? Or is this meant to end up like rare-magic? --Vitenka
It's meant to end up with lots of really bizarre effects and interactions. Johnny magic, (Yes, that's right, this generator is supposed to produce Jon Finkel --SF perhaps). It doesn't actually "hugely" favour giant ones - it's probably just that those are the ones you remember. --AC
Artifact? spells cost your opponents an additional 'Sacrifice a land' to play
T, Sacrifice a land: put a improbability counter on target permanent T, Sacrifice a red creature: ~this~ deals 2 damage to all creatures with a improbability counter on them. When a creature damaged this way is put into a graveyard from play this turn, return it to play under your control.' until end of turn
Though the ability is actually kinda nice - especially on a critter with this kind of cost. --Vitenka
Look where those quotes go. The creature with the ability is actually the beast. --ADS?, 12 years later
nongreen spells cost you an additional 'Pay 1 life' to play
... ok, it affects everyone so, ok I guess... --Vitenka
At the beginning of your combat step, you may pay BBR. If you do, you put 3 2/2 blue Wall creature tokens into play
Oh my goodness! *ROTFL*, c|n>k ... Ahem. What a wonderful card. I suggest we split it into about five or six, and vote on them individually.. There's four different groups of counter abilities there, and a few individuals. --AlexChurchill
CH notes that the first 4 abilities are just parts of a very long "Target beast gains '" construct. Suggests ignoring this and split as:
Enchantment? - 3RR? Whenever a white creature deals damage, put a improbability counter on target creature T, Sacrifice a land: put a improbability counter on target permanent T, Sacrifice a red creature: ~this~ deals 2 damage to all creatures with a improbability counter on them. When a creature damaged this way is put into a graveyard from play this turn, return it to play under your control.
Creature? - 2GR, Spellshaper or something. 1/1 again? nongreen spells cost you an additional 'Pay 1 life' to play Discard a multicoloured cards from your hand: ~this~ deals 7 damage to target creatures or players
AC: Interesting tension between its two abilities. In a massively gold deck it would be overpowered, but I think your stats are probably okay.
Creature? - 3BR, 2/2? At the beginning of your combat step, you may pay BBR. If you do, you put 3 2/2 blue Wall creature tokens into play
AC: Concept as a "Paranoid Dictator", maybe mono-black? It doesn't explain why the walls are blue, but you can't have everything...
JW: Changing to "blue Wall creature tokens with defender..." as that's presumably what the generator had in mind.
Creature? - 2UU. Merfolk Wizard 1/2 - concepted as something which can amalgamate other merfolk into it? Discard a Merfolk cards from your hand, T: put a +1/+1 counter on ~this~ Remove a +1/+1 counter from ~this~: counter target spell or ability
AC: Outside the format it's way overpowered - there are just too many other sources of +1/+1 counters. In the format, it may be okay.
Creature? - UBR, Spellshaper 1/2? 3BB, Discard a red creature cards from your hand: put a destiny counter on target enchantment Discard 2 cards from your hand: gain control of target permanent with a destiny counter AC: Given it'll cost you 3BB and three cards to steal one enchantment, this could be a 2/2 for UBR, maybe even for UB, I'd say. Good point. --CH
Artifact? T: put a leak counter on target land All artifact with leak counters on them gain 'Sacrifice a tapped Goblin, Discard a card from your hand: target opponent draws the discarded card's converted mana cost cards'
CH: Veto. Not enough mill.
AC: Is the veto because it's nigh-impossible to use (maybe we can turn an Elf into a land or vice versa. Then using that "elves are artifacts" card above...), or near-useless when you do? It might only take about 4 activations in 40-card limited to mill your opponent to death... And remember we've only seen a quarter of the set so far! ;)
CH: Hmm, slightly misread the card - thought it was the goblin that was checked for CMC. That makes it a bit better, since goblins tend to be quite cheap. Still not sure though - it does require artifact lands.
NH: Could be a vanilla creature.
Instant or Sorcery? target player puts 5 1/1 red Sliver creature tokens into play
That's kinda cool - like a red thingy of eyes, only with slivers. Cost of 5 or so? --VitenkaYup, 4R or 5R sorcery, I'd say --AC
It doesn't have to be red just because it makes red tokens. I'd vote we keep it on-color as 4G. --JW
Creature? Sacrifice ~this~, Tap an untapped permanent you control: ~this~ becomes the creature type of your choice in addition to its other types until end of turn
Sacrifice it to mistform it. Sounds useless, but might have some valid uses. (Whenever a cleric goes to the graveyard..) Though I don't think the wording works. --Vitenka (AC: Yes, ability does nothing so will be removed.)
WU, Pay 4 life: put a speed counter on target permanent 1U, T: target permanent with a speed counter on it may not attack until end of turn
Now that's a misnamed counter if ever I heard one. Underpowered ability, if anything. --Vitenka
AC: I don't know, it's not horrendous. The life is a oneoff payment, after that it's just 1U to hold off your big attacker. Underpowered compared to say MTG: Puppeteer I guess.
When ~this~ comes into play, you may Pay 2 life. If you do, add W to your mana pool
Discard a sorcery card from your hand: put a +1/+1 counter on ~this~ ~this~ comes into play with X +1/+1 counters on it, where X is the number of enchantments in play ~this~ comes into play with 3 +1/+1 counters on it
... well THAT's contradictory. MANY tokens. --Vitenka
1, remove any number of +1/+1 counters from ~this~: target player draws that many cards
Ok, that's overpowered. AND too many abilities again. --Vitenka
AC: But you're right that the final three are too strong between them. Removing them leaves just the speed counters (comedy name) and the option of channeling for one white mana. Which looks like a Wizard, a 1/2 for 1U or a 2/2 for WU, concept something like a Time Mage or Velocimancer?
Because this section wasn't confusing enough, I decide to split the previous card into the following two: Creature WU, Pay 4 life: put a speed counter on target permanent 1U, T: target permanent with a speed counter on it may not attack until end of turn"
1/2 Merfolk Wizard for 1U
Creature ~this~ comes into play with one +1/+1 counter on it for each enchantment in play. When ~this~ comes into play, you may pay 2 life. If you do, add W to your mana pool. Discard a sorcery card from your hand: put a +1/+1 counter on ~this~."
0/0 Ooze for 2G
Creature? All blue creatures gain 'creature spells cost you up to 2 less to play' AC: An uber-creature-accelerator, but only if you have a couple of blue creatures... So is this perhaps an Artifact Creature, 4, 1/3? JWA: I don't know; this ability's quite good compared to MTG: Rustspore Ram. Maybe it would work on a Green creature, thereby having the inherent disadvantage of having to play two specific colours? Say 2G for a 1/3?
Creature? All untapped permanents you control are white AC: Boring. This could be an effectively vanilla creature in whatever colour needs it, or just binned.
Enchantment? You may play ~this~ any time you could play an instant. You may play ~this~ any time you could play an instant. all players may play red spells with a converted mana cost less than or equal to 3 by paying '4U' instead of their mana cost Whenever a creature comes into play, you lose 3 life AC: Hmm. MTG: Wretched Anurid's drawback was hefty, and this is 3 times worse! But if it's a creature, it could be a Goblin Research Specimen at something like 3U for a 5/5, maybe... JWA: If the disadvantage is worse, maybe we should make just make the advantage better? Does a 6/6 for 1B sound ridiculous?
Instant or Sorcery? up to 1 target attacking or blocking colourless creaturess gain 'At the beginning of all players' main phase, unless an opponent discards a card from his or her hand, you may search your library for a card, reveal it, and put it into hand. If you do so, shuffle that library afterwards.' until end of turn Cycling R
CH: Surprisingly, does work. Lets you tutor once if you cast it on a colourless creature you control that will survive combat. Has to be Inst, 1B?
AC: Yes, looks about right. The opponent being able to discard to stop it is irritating though. I think I want to decrease the frequency that "Discard a card" comes up.
JWA: So, to paraphase, "At the start of the next main phase this turn, if target attacking or blocking colourless creature is in play, any opponent may discard a card from his or her hand. If no one does, you may search your library for a card, reveal it, and put into your hand. If you do, shuffle your library." If so, 1B is good.
Instant or Sorcery? remove a card you own not in the game from the game
Instant or Sorcery? unless target opponent pays UB, up to 2 target creatures with protection from permanents gain 'Whenever ~this~ deals damage to a player, you may pay 1W. If you do, put a 4/1 black Wall creature token into play' until end of turn
CH: Scrap. Very narrow condition.
AC: Aww - but it's such a useful effect! ...Er, I mean, yes, I agree. Unless Generator-sama gives us more than one way of getting creatures with prot-permanents, at which point I vote we keep this (probably as an instant for W).
Instant or Sorcery? unless any player discards a card from his or her hand, return target creature to its owner's hand
CH: Strictly worse than unsummon. Kinda. Does make your opponent wonder if you want the bounce or the discard.
AC: Yeah. Cost at U or B? U, I guess?
What about making it a cycle with card #12: U and "If you control an Island, you may ~this~ without paying its mana cost" -- JWA, who hopes nobody minds him crashing the party
You're extremely welcome to participate here! It's great to see this discussion revived, actually. I think #113 might be more tempting as the blue free card, if we're having a cycle, but we could just have both :) --AC
''CH: Way, way out of colour. And very, very good. Suggest veto on those counts.
AC: Agreed (unfortunately).
Creature? fear AC: Choose your vanilla. 1B 1/1, 1BB 2/2, 4B 3/3, 5B 4/3, or perhaps 6 for a 3/2 artifact creature. JW: We don't need more black and could use more weenies. 1/1 artifact creature for 2?
Enchantment? T: target nongreen creature gets -4/-3 When ~this~ is returned to its owner's hand, you may pay 1. If you do, ~this~ is green until end of turn AC: Meep! Sounds like a Creature - Minion Legend or some such, maybe "Ulvok, Notorious Torturer". About 4BB for a 3/3? JW: I assume we're scrapping the non-sensical second ability? Or should we just add the reminder text "(Cards in hand can't be colored)" ;-) JW: Again with the non-ending P/T modifications...
Instant or Sorcery? target opponent may search his or her library for a card with converted mana cost less than 2, reveal it, and remove it from the game. If that player does so, shuffle that library afterwards. AC: Haven't we already had this? Yes, number 8. Except here you can't use it on yourself, so out the window it goes. Artifact? When ~this~ is put into a graveyard from play, put the top 4 cards of your library on top of your library AC: Pointless as an artifact, but nice as a small creature: basically a MTG: Sage Owl except graveyard-triggered. Unfortunately we can't add Flying to it, so maybe a 1/2 for 1U or a 2/2 for 2U? JWA: Unless you get to look at the cards--which you don't under the current wording--this is a null ability. If we can't change the wording, we either scrap it or have an effectively vanilla creature.
Hmm. Hmm. I'm not sure. CompRules 217.2d says "If an effect puts two or more cards on the top or bottom of a library at the same time, the owner of those cards may arrange them in any order. That library's owner doesn't reveal the
order in which the cards go into his or her library." It's not clear either way, but I think we could certainly rule that the player does get to see - and thus retemplate it to match MTG: Sage Owl. --AC
JWA: Oops, you're right. As GenerSama? put it, it's technically an indexing: "Look at the top four cards of your library, and put them back in any order." Even 1/1 for U is possible, depending on how the other cards turn out and what holes we need to fill.
Instant or Sorcery? unless target opponent pays X life, where X is the number of cards any player has in hand, destroy all Zombies AC: Hmm, the "any player" could do with being more specific. Still, looks like a sorcery for 1W or 2W to me.
Instant or Sorcery? ~this~ deals 2 damage to target nonmulticoloured creature. This damage can't be prevented or redirected. . If a creature damaged this way would be put into a graveyard this turn, remove it from the game instead.. If a creature damaged this way would be put into a graveyard this turn, remove it from the game instead. AC: Revenge of the Damage-Modifying effects! Ahem. Instant for 2R? (cf kicked MTG: Scorching Lava) Or maybe 1R / RR would be okay, since it only hits creatures with a colour restriction: cf MTG: Strafe. JWA: This could be an Instant for R, as MTG: Shock or MTG: Electrostatic Bolt, no? Creature? Discard a card from your hand, T: unless any player sacrifices a tapped Golem, any number of target creatures with power greater than or equal to 1 can't be blocked until end of turn and you sacrifice a permanent. put two +1/+1 counters on target nontoken attacking or blocking creature AC: Hmm. T, discard a card, and sac a permanent, for two effects: permanently pump a combatant and/or make a load of things unblockable. Spellshaping any card into MTG: Falter is obviously very strong, and the double-MTG: Battlegrowth is quite nice too. But I don't think it's overpowered: losing a card and a permanent is a reasonable cost. Can anyone see anything I'm missing? Since there's no mana cost to the ability, the card itself needs to have a significant cost... how does 3RG (for, say, a 2/2 or 3/3 Wizard) sound?
Instant or Sorcery? destroy all permanents you control Go... bye-bye.
Enchantment? black creature spells cost all players 4 more to play All artifacts gain 'All creatures with power less than 4 may attack without tapping' AC: Mini-MTG: Serra's Blessing with a serious black hoser. Enchantment for about 2WW or 3WW? Or creature, since those are (theoretically) easier for black to deal with... Or should it just be binned for being it just a bit too unbalanced?
Enchantment? At the beginning of each player's combat step, you may Tap an untapped land you control. If you do, add 2 to your mana pool AC: Nearly useless. Occasionally would have applications, but very weak. Bin it? JWA: Ohh, no, I like it. It's weak, yes, but pretty decent with morph and probably some other stuff. Could be our 0 CMC artifact.'
Instant or Sorcery? unless an opponent pays 4 life, destroy target permanent you control
Creature? T: each player may return a card from his or her graveyard into hand 4: target Legend gets -2/+1 U: counter target Soldier spell AC: Bizarre, but no obvious problems. Not sure what colour the first ability is... more green than anything, I think, but blue or black could also make sense. 1U 1/1 Wizard (maybe a Pacifistic Librarian) or 1/1 Druid / Elf for G, or...?
Artifact? All Goblins gain fear AC: Something like Mogg Mask Merchant, Creature - Barbarian, 2/2, 2R? Or Goblin, 1/1?
Artifact? Sacrifice a permanent: put a warp counter on target permanent Whenever a creature with trample deals damage, put a warp counter on target permanent U: put a warp counter on target land All creatures with warp counters on them can't be blocked 2: gain control of target permanent with a warp counter on it until end of turn All permanents with warp counters on them are lands as well as their types AC: Repeatable multiple stealing and/or MTG: Infiltrateing? Probably overpowered.
Artifact? At the beginning of your upkeep, put a doom counter on target enchantment When ~this~ comes into play, put a doom counter on target creature Sacrifice a permanent, Sacrifice a creature with both power and toughness less than 3: put a doom counter on target artifact GG: put a doom counter on target creature T, Tap an untapped Soldier Wizard you control: untap all permanents with a doom counter on them and gain control of it until end of turn. AC: Useless if you can't get a Soldier Wizard; evil repeatable stealing if you can. What do people think? JW: Heh, Staff of Doom, I kinda like it. It should be a Artifact and could cost say <sound of a die being rolled> 3? Note to us: make a Soldier Wizard. Instant or Sorcery? Buyback: X red mana, where X is the number of Elves in play, Pay 3 life draw Y cards, where Y is the number of cards an opponent has in hand AC: Hmm. Something like MTG: Deep Analysis but typically more powerful early game, useless if your opponent has emptied their hand. Cost at about 3UU, given the large drawing potential? People are free to argue about the sorcery vs. instant issue. JWA: Should be a sorcery, as card drawing isn't supposed to happen at instant speed as much anymore. Also could we change it to "target opponent", or is that crossing the don't-mess-with-the-generated-text boundary?
I think such a change does need making. It's surprisingly hard to tell the generator at which times "an opponent" is a valid player choice. (And for that matter "target opponent" - which wouldn't work on a static ability of a permanent, for example.) So yes, change it. --AC
Instant or Sorcery? you gain 2 life AC: Weak, and we already have one inferior MTG: Healing Salve. Does anyone want another?
Artifact? At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice any number of creatures. draw that many cards AC: Achieves what MagicTheGathering/SkullClamp should, without the brokenness :) Artifact for 2 or 3? JW: Probably should be more expensive than 2 or 3: MTG: Reprocess costs 2BB to get a better effect once. In the interest of reducing our artifact count, how about an Enchantment for 2BBB. JW: Now I wondering about making it a creature, which has a cool flavour... some sort of Necromancer/Slaver? Driver. Maybe a 2/3 Zombie for 3BB? Instant or Sorcery? Flashback Tap an untapped land you control
put 4 2/2 black Zombie creature tokens into play AC: Powerful. Compare MTG: Grizzly Fate. Sorcery 5BB? JWA: Broken. Read the Flashback cost as "Madness: 1" and compare with MTG: Arrogant Wurm.
Instant or Sorcery? you sacrifice a nonblue creature. regenerate any number of target creatures with both power and toughness less than 3 AC: This is actually fair, I think, and also fairly flavourful. With damage on the stack, save all but one of your weenie army. Seems to feel more White than Green (cf MTG: Daru Mender), so Instant for W or 1W?
Instant or Sorcery? sacrifice any number of permanents. that many lands gain 'Whenever an opponent plays a land, put a leak counter on target land 3: put a +1/+1 counter on all enchantments with a leak counter on them' until end of turn Storm AC: So lands that are enchantments can get a counter which affects creatures. Comedy. But bin it.
Enchantment? As long as the number of cards you have in hand is greater than 3, activated abilities cost all players an additional 'Sacrifice a basic land' to play Threshold - All Legends are green 1BBB: target creature with double strike can't be blocked until end of turn At the beginning of each opponent's upkeep, you may Pay 2 life. If you do, add 3UU to your mana pool T, Sacrifice ~this~: put a speed counter on target land B: put a +1/+1 counter on all permanents with a speed counter on them AC: First ability is the one that does anything, and that's quite harsh, even accepting that "activated abilities" should be read "nonmana activated abilities". Mana Chains, Enchantment, 2RR?
Instant or Sorcery? untap target Wizard and gain control of it until end of turn. It gains haste until end of turn.
AC: Weak, unless a couple of the cards with strong abilities end up as wizards. Actually, weak even then. Instant R, or just bin it? JW: Could be the red one of the "free spell" cycle. "R. If you control a Mountain, you may play ~this~ without paying it's mana cost." And I get the feeling we do have a number of Wizards. JW: We may have undervalued this, as Champions has a similar card for 3R. Yes, "nonlegendary" is a far cry from "Wizard", but "3R" is massively different from "play with mountains". Thoughts?
Creature? At the beginning of each opponent's main phase, two target Legends get +1/+1 until end of turn 4: unless an opponent sacrifices a red creature, you may search your library for a card, reveal it, and put it into hand. If you do so, shuffle that library afterwards. Pay 1 life, Pay 3 life: put a time counter on target enchantment All permanents with time counters on them are white When ~this~ is removed from the game, put a 1/1 black Sliver creature token into play 4: put a 2/2 red Legend creature token with flying into play UU: put 3 1/1 Wizard artifact creature tokens into play Discard a card from your hand, Sacrifice a Plains, sacrifice a Wizard: regenerate two target blue creatures AC: Bin the overpowered second ability which can't be fixed by pricing (cf MTG: Planar Portal), and perhaps the useless 3rd and 4th as well. The rest looks like a reasonable kind of Necromancer or something. It feels like she's an Embittered Survivor, the only one of her academy of sorcery to live through some disaster, and now she'll raise either her comrades (ability 7) or the chancellor (ablity 6). 4B or 1UBR for a 2/2?
Artifact? Whenever a white creature comes into play, put a charge counter on ~this~ Remove X charge counters from ~this~, where X is the number of permanent types among permanents any player controls (The permanent types are artifact, creature, enchantment and land): draw 1 card, then discard 1 card All blocking creatures may attack without tapping R: put two +1/+1 counters on target creature with power greater than or equal to X, where X is the number of colours among permanents you control
CH: Not actually useless, although very weird (third ability is useless, obviously). Relatively nice the way the "winding-down" effects have appeared on the same card. Could be artifact, could be multicoloured Enchantment, although I'm having difficulty deciding colours. As Artifact, 6 (due to powerful R: ability) - "Hand-Wound Generator" or better name on same lines?
AC: The generator deliberately pairs abilities which use the same type of counter (charge in this case), no coincidence there. But as for the card, I fear it's a bit problematic. Final ability is better with fewer different colours in your deck, and also immensely strong with large amounts of red mana. Anything going unblocked gets pumped *permanently* for a rate much better than firebreathing normally costs? I envisage this card just totally swinging games if that ability stays on. Without it, the card is just a minor card-selection engine for white creature decks.
Enchantment? Whenever an opponent draws a card, you may pay 3B. If you do, target opponent may return up to X cards from his or her graveyard to play, where X is the number of colours among creatures any player controls
CH:Useless, scrap it
NH: Could be a vanilla creature.
Enchantment? When ~this~ comes into play, you may pay 3WW. If you do, put a 2/1 blue Merfolk creature token into play Pay 4 life, Sacrifice a nonblue creature, sacrifice a Merfolk: ~this~ deals 4 damage to target colourless creature. When a creature damaged this way is put into a graveyard from play this turn, return it to play under your control. Whenever a creature deals damage to a player, gain control of target untapped Beast until end of turn
CH: Again, odd but not unusable. Red, maybe 1R, since first ability pair needs hefty committment, last ability is very situational.
AC: Since the damage ability will only hit colourless creatures and does cost 4 life and two creatures, it could be costed as a creature with a minor ability - something like 2/1 for 1R or 4/2 for 3R. Or it could be black, say 3B 3/3.
Instant or Sorcery? regenerate target green creature
CH: Ah, nicely vanilla. Marginally overcosted at instant for G. Perhaps do as the W life-gain, and have "G. If you control a forest, you may play without cost"?
AC: No objections here.
Enchantment? 2: put a warp counter on target artifact At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay X green mana, where X is the number of creatures with trample in play. If you do, put a warp counter on target permanent All lands with warp counters on them gain protection from instant or sorcery spells Discard a card from your hand: put a time counter on target creature All creatures with time counters on them gain protection from permanents you control All creatures with time counters on them may attack without tapping All creatures with time counters on them get -1/+2
''CH: Not too bad. Definitely White. Land-destruction isn't likely to be viable, so cost it on second ability, which possibly pushes it to Wb. Possibly WWB (or 1WW) - "Shield of the Eye"?
AC: I don't see why it's black. All three functions of the counters look white to me. 1WW enchantment looks okay.
Instant or Sorcery? Affinity for enchantments you may return a land card from your graveyard to play
CH: Pretty plausible. Sorc at 1G, Inst at 2G. "Druid's Trance"?
AC: Seems fine. One could concept it in a number of ways - to do with nostalgia, renewal of ground, earth-shifting, or all sorts. But your suggestions seem fine. It'll often find a use, with all the discard abilities, but I'm not sure when you'd put this in your deck.
Creature? Whenever any player is dealt damage, each player may return a card from his or her graveyard to hand AC: Hmm, symmetric but powerful. Could be some kind of Druid, or may make sense as just an enchantment. Either way, cost at... 2GG?
Creature? All white creatures can't be blocked except by creatures with power greater than or equal to 3 Whenever you play a land, regenerate any number of target Dragons T: put a destiny counter on target permanent When ~this~ comes into play, put a destiny counter on target creature Discard a card from your hand, Sacrifice a Island: put a destiny counter on target permanent When ~this~ comes into play, put a destiny counter on target creature All permanents with destiny counters on them gain 'protection from black' All permanents with destiny counters on them are enchantments as well as their types All permanents with destiny counters on them gain protection from red
Pay 1 life: draw 5 cards AC: Ahem, let's pretend this bit isn't here When ~this~ leaves play, put a speed counter on target land T: target artifact with a speed counter on it gains '2BG: gain control of target tapped Swamp (This effect doesn't end at end of turn)' until end of turn Pay 1 life: target creature is blue (This effect doesn't end at end of turn) AC: Coo, very white. Looks like a Fervent Guerilla, probably 1WW rather than 1WU. I want to say 2/2 again, although we are ending up with quite a lot of those...
Instant or Sorcery? any number of target lands are artifacts as well as their types until end of turn AC: Plausible (given MTG: Myr Landshaper), although often useless. Instant for U, probably.
Creature? You may play ~this~ any time you could play an instant. ~this~ comes into play with 4 +1/+1 counters on it Remove a +1/+1 counter from ~this~: unless an opponent pays 3U, copy target spell or ability and choose new targets for the copy Remove 3 +1/+1 counters from ~this~: unless target opponent taps an untapped land he or she controls, put a card you own not in the game on top of your library ~this~ comes into play with 1 +1/+1 counter on it Sacrifice a creature with both power and toughness greater than 2, remove 2 +1/+1 counters from ~this~: unless any player pays 3 life, add X the colour of your choice mana, where X is the number of artifact spells played this turn to your mana pool
CH: Powerful, but not insanely so. Suggest we stick with 4 +1/+1 counters. It feels blue in abilities, so will have to be costed highly to offset the fact we'd be giving blue at least a 4/4 creature. 3UU feels about right for a 0/0 or 0/1.
AC: Yes. Strong, fun, but not excessive. I'd say make it 4UU, since a 4/4 for 5 is better than blue's got for a long time.
Are you both nuts? MTG: Ring of Ma'ruf costs 5, and has an activation cost of 5, RFG ~this~. So, adding a 4/4 body which can also fork stuff costs one more mana? Riiiight..... --SF, who thinks 6UU is undercosted, and would bin it for being broken. Consider MTG: Primoc Escapee.
But you can only use the wish ability if your opponent is totally tapped out. The fork ability is actually scarier. How about 4UR or 5UR, then? --AC
Creature? At the beginning of your combat phase, put a 1/2 Golem artifact creature token into play 2: target player may search his or her library for a card, reveal it, and remove it from the game. If that player does so, shuffle that library afterwards. Whenever any player draws a card, you may pay 2. If you do, until end of turn, if you would gain life, instead add BRR to your mana pool. Spend this mana only on spells.
CH: Very, very odd. Only the first ability is likely to be useful, but that's quite a handy one. Creature sounds reasonable, possibly Artifact Creature (feels similar to MTG: Myr Servitor). Say 4 for a 1/1?
AC: Sounds fine. Some kind of Basalt Sculptor or similar?
Enchantment? If you would lose life, any player may pay 2. If a player does, instead tap target Bird
CH: Neat, I like it. Instead of taking damage, I earth it harmlessly on my Birds. Definitely white, probably 3W - "Opal Cage"?
AC: Powerful, but then again so is MTG: Worship. This prevents loss of life as well as damage, but does require mana and a Bird. I like it.
JWA: It would need to be worded differently to horse you to have a Bird. Something like "If you would lose life, instead any player may pay 2 and tap a target Bird". Or if you want to avoid being able to use it on other peoples already tapped Birds "If you would lose life, instead any player may pay 2 and tap an untapped Bird he or she controls". Also, I think we might be short on Birds.
Instant or Sorcery? any number of target Wizards get +0/+3 until end of turn Scry 1
AC: Teehee. It's MTG: Opt with a minor Wizard shield. Is the bonus enough to push it to Sorcery for U, or is Instant fine? That makes it very slightly better than Opt.
Except that it doesn't have "draw a card" attached to it, so isn't, in fact, better than Opt. Certainly fine for U though. --SF
Whoops, yes, I made a boo-boo :) That makes it very weak. Oh well. --AC
Creature? activated abilities cost all players an additional 'Discard a card from your hand' to play
AC: Evil thing. I agree with making it a creature... white, or maybe artifact? Oppressive Sovereign, 2/3, 3W?
Clearly white, this isn't Mirrodin block wherein the artifacts are allowed to eat the colour pie. I think I'd make it a 1/3 for 1WW or 3W, on the basis that White's rule-redefining creatures generally don't have more than one power...then again, MTG: Windborn Muse, so 2/3 for 3W is probably fine.
JWA: We should probably make it "non-mana activated abilities".
Enchantment? Sacrifice a unblocked creature, Discard a card from your hand: ~this~ can't be the target of spells or abilities (This effect doesn't end at end of turn) When ~this~ leaves play, the next time a creature with toughness not equal to 4 would deal damage to a creature this turn, you may pay 3. If you do, instead draw a card B: put a doom counter on target enchantment Tap an untapped land you control, T: return target permanent with a doom counter on it to its owner's hand Discard a card from your hand, T: you sacrifice a creature. tap up to 4 target permanents target opponent controls
AC: So it bounces enchantments for B (hmm) or pitches cards and creatures to tap stuff. Unfortunately the former means it can't be black or artifact, so Enchantment for 2U? If people dislike tapping their enchantments it could be a creature instead.
Yes, I strongly dislike tapping my enchantments absent an MTG: Opalescence (when I quite like beating people down with MTG: Cowardice). Note that "you sacrifice a creature" is part of the effect, not the cost; so if this wasn't a creature it'd be possibly to get around that drawback. 1/1 body for 2U, I think. --SF
Well, is just pitching a card too low a cost to just tap four things? Not that I object to your proposed stats. --AC, who doesn't really mind
Instant or Sorcery? copy target creature spell and choose new targets for the copy AC: Intriguing. MTG: Clone, but only when the spell is being cast. So 1UU?
CH: I like a lot. Sounds fine at 1UU
JWA: hmmm... as a self-appointed rules lawyer, I'll suggest "Put a creature token into play that's a copy of target creature spell. If that spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for the copy."
Hehe. You're right, as the rules currently stand you can't just copy a creature spell and end up with a token. I've often thought you *should* be able to :) But you're right. Also, we can remove the targetting clause, as MTG: Clone was the only targetted creature spell AFAIK and that's been retemplated more sensibly now. --AC
Enchantment? 2RR: ~this~ is a land as well as its types until end of turn As long as the number of enchantment spells played this turn is less than 3, All white enchantments are 4/4 creatures as well as their types AC: A wacky twist on MTG: Opalescence. Looks like an enchantment for maybe 4W, given that it'll be a 4/4 itself? JWA: Would be less confusing if we actually made it a 4/4 creature. We should also add the reminder text "(Local enchantments that are also creatures are placed in their owner's graveyards)" as I was confused about it. Rule 212.4g, if anyone's curious.
Enchantment? All creatures with power equal to 3 can't be blocked 4G: ~this~ deals 4 damage to target creature or player AC: Owch. Green just doesn't get removal like that. I suppose it could be a red enchantment or creature, maybe 1RR or so? Except it would end the game for 25 mana... JW: And red doesn't get evasion like that. How about 1UR, or maybe 3UR for a 3/1 Soldier Wizard?
Instant or Sorcery? Buyback: W regenerate target nonblack creature AC: Nice! Instant, maybe 1G to cast, bearing in mind the buyback of W? Or would people prefer to keep it in white (the third-best colour at regeneration)?
Artifact? T, Discard a card from your hand: put a 1/1 blue Merfolk creature token into play Sacrifice a Merfolk: draw 1 card Sacrifice a green creature, Sacrifice a creature with toughness not equal to 1: put a charge counter on ~this~ 3GW, remove a charge counter from ~this~: target untapped land is a artifact as well as its types until end of turn and put a card you own not in the game into your hand AC: A MTG: Merfolk Looter which uses Merfolk tokens as a halfway house, and a repeatable MTG: Death Wish costing you two nonMerfolk creatures instead of life. Does this add up to overpowered, or would it be okay if costed at 6 or 7? Colour is another question: first half is blue all over, second I'd think of as black but is already green, white and again green. Ccould be a combination of Living and Golden wishes, I guess. JW: For simplicity and in into to actually fit it on a card, how about we ditch to charge counter abilities? Charge counters should only be on artifacts, anyway...
Creature? Discard a card from your hand: you sacrifice a artifact. return target permanent to its owner's hand AC: Powerful bounce, but not totally abusive. Master of the Aether, Creature - Wizard (Legend), 2UU, 1/2 or 2/2?
CH: Again, the sacrifice is an effect not a cost, which makes it marginally better. But 2UU for 1/2 Legend sounds pretty ok
Enchantment? At the beginning of each opponent's combat phase, all tapped nonbasic lands gain 'protection from green' until end of turn and each player gains 4 life Pay 2 life: each player puts 7 4/1 black Cleric creature tokens into play AC: Ermmm...? Bizarro... JW: LOL, "Hey, man, do you have 7 of those 4/1 black Cleric tokens I could borrow? Hey, sweet dude, thanks!". Seriously though, the overshadowed "at the beginning of each opponent's combat phase...each player gains 4 life" bit is really the crux of the card, as it lets you stall until whatever combo pieces you need come up. Although, getting 14 "free" creatures a turn is pretty nuts, too. AHHH! Ummm.... a 5GB Enchantment, perhaps? Instant or Sorcery? copy target activated ablity and choose new targets for the copy AC: Cute and wacky (especially in the format). A fairly cheap instant, but is it red (MTG: Fork), green (MTG: Bind) or blue (MTG: Interdict, MTG: Mischievous Quanar)?
CH: Hmm. Red is redirection rather than copying these days. Green can counter abilities, but isn't known for tricksy copy effects. Feels blue, but check how many of each colour when we're done?
Creature? All green creatures get -1/-2 AC: I read that as an MTG: Infest -style sorcery, but it's a permanent. Either an enchantment like MTG: Engineered Plague, or a creature like MTG: Gloomdrifter. Cost at about BB, or 3BB for a 3/2, respectively? Other proposals welcome.
When ~this~ is removed from the game, ~this~ gains 'At the beginning of your upkeep, put a 1/1 green Elf creature token into play T, Discard a card from your hand: put a 0/1 white Wall creature token into play 2WUBRG: put a 7/7 blue Legend creature token into play Sacrifice 1 Legend: add 1 to your mana pool. Spend this mana only on spells or abilities.' (This effect doesn't end at end of turn) Whenever a permanent you control leaves play, you may Discard a card from your hand. If you do, you receive 3 poison counters At the beginning of your upkeep, ~this~ deals X damage to two target creatures, where X is the number of permanents in play
AC: Oh, so so bizarre. The last ability is currently the main one and is frankly extremely powerful. But the big "this gains " structure looks good fun. Maybe use that instead?
JW: If we can't edit abilities, the last one's really the only one, and I thing it's kinda cool. Remember that when your opp runs out of creatures, you'll have to start zapping your own or get rid of this enchantment (which Red is Bad at). Still expensive though; 3RRR possibly.
Creature? Whenever ~this~ deals combat damage to a player, all blue enchantments gain protection from Soldiers (This effect doesn't end at end of turn) All Goblins gain 'Sacrifice an attacking Dragon: counter target activated ability' When ~this~ comes into play, you may pay GGG. If you do, target player may search his or her library for a card, reveal it, and put it into play. If that player does so, shuffle that library afterwards. 2: you may put a enchantment card from hand into play Whenever a Goblin comes into play, you may pay BR. If you do, target opponent puts X 1/1 black Bird creature tokens with flying into play, where X is the number of nonwhite creatures in play When ~this~ is removed from the game, put a 5/5 red Dragon creature token with flying into play
JW: 1st ability: rarely useful, but horses it to be a creature.
2nd ability: rarely useful.
3rd ability: detrimental. No, it isn't. It's target player, not target opponent, which makes it downright ridculous. -NH, who was reading this page and noticed this.
4th ability: 3/5ths of insane. And probably Green.
5th ability: misleading. As you control the ability and it doesn't say "opponent puts X...into play under his or her control", technically you would get the birds. Also mostly Green (except the flying). And also rarely useful, depending on the number of Goblins. ...Actually, that's not the case. CompRules 216.1: "A token is controlled by whomever put it into play and owned by the controller of the spell or ability that created it." The opponent puts it into play, so the opponent controls it. As StuartFraser has pointed out, though, when you make your opponent put tokens into play they control them but you own them, so MTG: Brand becomes scary. --AlexChurchill
6th ability: cute. And rarely useful.
I'd call it a 2/2 Enchantress for 4G.
Enchantment? At the beginning of your main phase, put a speed counter on target creature All creatures with speed counters on them can't be blocked except by token nontoken nonblack creatures AC: That would be "can't be blocked" then - not many token nontoken creatures around. As such this is quite powerful: enchantment for about 6, probably red? JWA: Unblockability's usually Blue; say 5U? Instant or Sorcery? target Golem can't be blocked until end of turn
JWA: Worst than Infiltrate, as it only targets Golems. Could be the black free spell: "B. If you control a Swamp, you may play this without paying its mana cost."
Enchantment? When ~this~ comes into play, you may pay 3. If you do, you gain X life, where X is the number of basic land types among lands an opponent controls AC: Not too useful. Maybe a white or green creature, I guess, which would let it be a 2/2 for 2 or 3/3 for 3.
Instant or Sorcery? sacrifice any number of Zombies. each player loses that much life AC: A finisher for the Zombie deck if it's already winning. How useful. (Worse than MTG: Goblin War Strike in two ways!) Oh well, Sorcery for B or 1B?
Creature? Threshold - All permanents target opponent controls gain 'When ~this~ is removed from the game, put a 3/3 Bird artifact creature token with flying into play UU: put a 2/2 Golem artifact creature token into play Sacrifice a Golem: draw a card' All black creatures gain flying AC: So... it's something with a drawback that may do nothing, probably a black creature. Can't be too undercosted because the drawback only hits at your threshold. And it makes everything black fly, so some kind of ghost at maybe a 2/2 for 3B? Or an enchantment at 1B?
At the beginning of your upkeep, target player may pay 4. If that player does, ~this~ gains 'At the beginning of your main phase, you may Discard a card from your hand. If you do, all Legends get +2/+2 until end of turn' until end of turn Whenever any player plays a spell, you may pay X white mana, where X is the number of permanent types among permanents you control (The permanent types are artifact, creature, enchantment and land). If you do, copy target spell or ability and choose new targets for the copy AC: Astonishingly, the first ability actually works, although 4 and a card is expensive to pump all Legends by 2. The second works very well timing-wise, too, but way out of flavour for white... I like the idea (maybe he's Randull, Unimaginative Legislator, Creature - Bureaucrat Legend, 2WUU?) but I fear it's just a bit too strong, to copy any spell for WW or WWW. What do others think?
Enchantment? At the beginning of your upkeep, you may Sacrifice a Zombie. If you do, ~this~ gains protection from instant or sorcery spells until end of turn Whenever enchanted enchantment becomes tapped, ~this~ is a land as well as its types until end of turn AC: Useless, and unfortunately has to be an enchantment, can't even become a vanilla creature. Scrap.
Instant or Sorcery? destroy all Mountains
AC: Rather out of flavour for Red's enemies these days (although MTG: Acid Rain was printed once...) I suppose it could just about be a white sorcery by analogy with MTG: Armageddon, costed something like 3WW. I'm not a big fan of hosers this powerful, though, so I wouldn't mind if we scrap it.
JW:If you'd like something more on-color and interesting, we could cost it at 2R.
Artifact? When ~this~ leaves play, target player may pay X blue mana, where X is the number of colours among permanents you control. If you does, target player gains 4 life and draw 2 cards
AC: Interesting. I'd say not an artifact but something like a 2/3 creature for 1WU. Some kind of Venerable Librarian, maybe.
''JW: We need more green creatures, and green does both life gain and draw drawing on occasion, so I vote we go that route. 2/3 for GG, maybe?
Instant or Sorcery? any number of target Clerics get +1/+4 until end of turn
AC: Fair enough. Probably an instant for about 3W.
Creature? ~this~ comes into play with 1 +1/+1 counter on it Remove a +1/+1 counter from ~this~: you gain X life, where X is the number of basic land types among lands you control Pay 4 life, remove any number of +1/+1 counters from ~this~: untap that many target permanents GW: ~this~ deals 3 damage to up to 4 target creatures with total power and toughness greater than 6. This damage can't be prevented.
AC: The final bit feels a bit like MTG: Reprisal... maybe...? Um, some kind of Soldier Legend for about 2WG. Or is that last bit just too far out of flavour for WG?
Instant or Sorcery? change the text of target spell by replacing all instances of one creature type with another. (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
AC: Half of MTG: Artificial Evolution. Nonetheless, could be useful in this bizarre format with tribal cards (as well as everything else). Instant for U, or do we make it the blue "free" instant to match the white and green ones above?
Creature? All nonbasic lands gain 'At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay X black mana, where X is the number of Beasts in play. If you do, put a 1/1 red Goblin creature token into play Tap an untapped multicoloured creature you control, Tap an untapped creature you control, sacrifice 2 Goblins: return target tapped Legend to its owner's hand'
AC: Mogg Warrens, which make all nonbasic lands give free Goblin tokens each turn until any scary Beasts appear, at which point you need to infuse them with black mana to bring them out. I'm actually inclined to make this a (nonbasic) Land itself... seem fair to others?
Instant or Sorcery? each player may search his or her library for a card, reveal it, and put it into his or her hand. If that player does so, shuffle that library afterwards.
JWA: Mirrored tutor, nice. Black, I guess, say a Sorcery for 1B?
Enchantment? T: regenerate all creatures with total power and toughness greater than or equal to 1 Pay 1 life, Pay 3 life: counter target instant or sorcery spell Pay 3 life: target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn When ~this~ is put into a graveyard from play, you may Discard a card from your hand. If you do, target blocking creature with power or toughness greater than X, where X is the number of basic land types among lands an opponent controls becomes the creature type of your choice until end of turn All creatures with power or toughness less than 5 become Beasts
JWA: That last ability hoses Mogg Warrens nicely ;-). The first 3 are the crucial ones; they're all mostly black in flavor, but pretty powerful. Has to be a creature because of the tap ability. How about a 3/4 Zombie Wizard for 5BB?
Artifact? Tap an untapped Goblin you control: return up to 5 target lands to their owner's hand 4R: copy target spell or ability and choose new targets for the copy Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage, put a doom counter on target enchantment At the beginning of each player's upkeep, you may Sacrifice a white creature. If you do, put a doom counter on target enchantment All permanents with doom counters on them are black
JWA: Yowza! LD with a vengence. As it has to be an equipment, thus colourless, I don't think there's any way to cost this. Scrap?
NH: You could remove the first ability and just have it be a MTG: Mirari variant.
Instant or Sorcery? Choose one: add RGG to your mana pool; or counter target spell
JWA: Doesn't that just make you smile? Blue instant, obviously, and unfortunately should cost at least 2UU to sync up with the current price of counters. But let's put it down as GUU and hope nobody notices.
Some stats, as of revision 76. Not gauranteed to be accurate. As certain cards are missing certain things, nothing should be assumed to add up. If anyone knows a good way to format the tables, please feel free.
Zeroth Order Stats Total Cards 114 (I might have missed some...) Scrapped 23 Progressing 91
First Order Stats (Colored totals include appropriate multis) White 21 Blue 21 Black 21 Red 17 Green 18 Multicolored 16
Creatures 33 Global Enchantments 15 Local Enchantments 0 (Should we try to remedy this?) Artifact 6 Land 2 Instants 19 Sorceries 7
I have an excel file and can coerce almost anything else people might want out of it upon resquest. I'll probably look at second order stats (e.g. # green creatures, # blue instants, etc) at somepoint. Encourage me if you're interested.
The results look pretty shiny, all in all. We should be able to sync up the number of cards in each color to 20... We also have to do something about those darn Wizards (this feels reminiscent of what R&D went through during Onslaught design...) --JW
Very useful - many thanks! Also we're surprisingly close to colour-balanced. The proportions don't look too bad at all either - perhaps not enough creatures have toughness 1, but otherwise fair. The mana costs overall are much higher than a typical Wizards set, but that might be to be expected. Does anyone have similar stats for official (small) sets? I guess we should get six (or whatever) more cards, and finalise the wording and stats for all of them - maybe on a different subpage like /CardList. --AlexChurchill
Jwanders has templated to 8th Ed. and compiled the full /CardList.
Cooool! Fabulous stuff. Will make comments on that page. --AC
Actually, I guess were disturbingly low on critters. We have 33/91, while I think most sets are at least 50%. There's about 10 cards without defined types, but we may still need to put a few more of the enchantments on sticks. I've similar stats for the last few blocks compiled somewhere; I'll post 'em when I find 'em. (Should this stat section be moved to /CardStats??) -JW