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Alterations from original [UseModWiki] 0.92 script

Shortlist (details below):

Backburner requests

These will take longer than an evening to do, so will not get done until MoonShadow has a RoundTuit.

Currently, the [list of full links] (which is what I'd end up using for input data) and the [index of all pages] are regenerated every time rather than cached (which is why they take so long).
I'd like one of these too. I even reckon I know how to write one. I have something similar I wrote about four years ago. However, this would require me to generate images on the fly, so probably won't happen until after Christmas. Meanwhile, what would people find more useful - a Perl one that generates a big 2D graphical mess, or a Java one that lets you fly around a neat 3D chart but runs only in Netscape 3.141, on February 29th, if the moon is crescent-shaped and purple? - MoonShadow
The 2D one sounds nicer :) -- Senji
Hmm, getting it to output something that [graphviz] can use as input would be an idea... -- Senji
MoonShadow: poo. This seems b0rked, and I can't tell why. The only characters my code explicitly excludes are " " and "=". Some markup gets interpreted beforehand, but that should only result in "<", ">;" and "&" being excluded, as far as I can tell. This will have to go on the back burner until I have time for a decent-length debugging session.


Open feature requests for Wiki script go in this section'

Sounds good. -- M-A
Ooh, yes, yes, yes! :):)  --AlexChurchill

We can do it together on Saturday if you like ;) - MoonShadow
Nyo.  I thought you'd realised by now that I only pretend to be a programmer...  Of course, the real skill comes in getting the computer to believe as well... - Kazuhiko
AlexChurchill would really like this too. Links to Diff and Edit at the top of the page would significantly decrease my WaitingForWiki?.
Ditto - long pages can take a long time to load - especially annoying when all you want to do is revert to a non-spammed (and thus non huge) version.  Would be better to have a copy than a move.  --Vitenka

When an UnReified? link is postpended with a quotation mark, can we make that question mark become the link, rather than adding an extra one?  So that PleaseDoNotReify? doesn't become "Will you reify PleaseDoNotReify??"  --Vitenka  (CosmeticImprovement?)

Yes, in principle. I'll have to think about exactly how to do it, though, because the decision of how much text to suck in and pass down to the link-munging code has already been made by the time I know whether the link is going to be reified or not, and I don't want to make the code uglier than it already is. Best way seems to be to always suck in question marks and then alter all cases but one to discard them again. - MoonShadow
Whereas AlexChurchill would vote against this one. I mentally edit out the BlueQuestionMark when reading, and such sentences would end up looking as if the author hadn't finished them. --AC

Eeep.  Sorry.  I had neglected to remember this changed behaviour.  Requiring a colon is absolutely fine, I was just forgetting ItsNotABugItsAFeature.  --AC
Well - it should only accept real (looking) ISBN?s.  ISBN followed by a space shouldn't make a link.  --Vitenka  (I'd say ISBN:123 should link (but only the 123, not the word 'should'!), ISBN123 should link, but 'I'm now talking about an ISBN here' should not.)
The problem with that is, I want to use the Amazon links for all Amazon stock, not just things that have ISBNs. The things Amazon uses instead of ISBNs have the same number of characters, but are not limited to specific character classes. There is no way to stop "ISBN thingammyjig" linking since there is no way of telling "thingammyj" from a valid Amazon product ID. - MoonShadow
So can't ISBNtingamyjig make a link, but ISBN thingamyjig not?  --Vitenka
We could do it that way, but it's not very intuitive. The reason I currently pull in things containing spaces and dashes, allow a space after the word "ISBN", and used to make the colon optional, is because they are written that way elsewhere, and I wished to forestall revision comments like AlexChurchills?, along the lines of "I copy-pasted this ISBN and it's not linking", or &amp;quot;I copied this ISBN verbatim from the back of the book, dashes and all, and it's not linking". I was trying to cut down on "how do I link to ISBN" questions by making the links just happen when someone typed in an ISBN in whatever way they felt like. The experiment seems to have failed, though, since people tend to ask the question anyway - even when there are examples around right next to where they're editing - so maybe we ought to do that. MoonShadow

It should be fairly easy to do if the colourings were added from this point forward - just a change to the edit stuff.  It may be a bear to do retroactively.  But I'm not sure it would be a good idea - it's bad enough that I already have three hostnames, colouring to those would be bad.  And no 'just log in' isn't an answer - I already sign my posts when I remember.  Luckily if this was done I wouldn't see it, but if other people saw it and it positively made it more difficult to tell I had written stuff it would be bad.  It might be nice to save us having to sign ChiarkPerson and Plasmon person posts.  I'm sure MoonShadow will comment on the difficulty (or otherwise) of actually implementing it.  --Vitenka
I'm thinking it's more likely to help than hinder, and one can always have an option to switch it off if you find it annoying. As for editing from several machines, one could always tell MoonShadow which IP addresses you normally use, and he can hardcode their colours. Retroactively, I would be thinking something along the lines of "cvs annotate", but that doesn't quite fit the current user/IpAddress? paradigm. I admit it sounds a lot easier to just do from here onwards. --Admiral
You misunderstand.  I can turn it off (And have, globally.  My browser is monochrome and proud of it.)  What I can't do is get other people to turn it off when viewing my comments.  --Vitenka
Yay. I have a monochrome monitor at home. They're fun. It's also the biggest monitor in my possession. --Admiral
Not practical to do retroactively as stated, I'm afraid, and probably not practical in general. Metadata is currently stored on a per-document per-revision basis. At the moment, diffs are not stored - they are generated on the fly as and when required. I simply do not have the time to make the sweeping changes that would be necessary to store per-line metadata - there are much simpler and less controversial changes on the request list that have been waiting for an implementation for a very long time now (autogenerated contents, for instance). I've been considering writing something to allow people to do coloured diffs over a small range of revisions rather than just two, which would have a similar effect to what you propose, but that would be too slow to use over the entire revision history and/or as a default browsing mode - consider what would be involved in colouring TodayIAmMostly, for instance. There are other issues - how do you propose to handle spelling and grammar changes, for instance - who do they get attributed to? What about if multiple people edit the same unit of text? - MoonShadow
On a slightly more inflammatory and less technical note, I would say I agree that deeply nested conversation on a webpage is ugly - but the answer for a wiki is not to make it into a web BBS, it is to split the conversation up and/or refactor it. If a conversation is getting too difficult to read, perhaps it's time to summarise it into a list of points made and restart discussion on each of those separately. I'd say the aim ultimately is to condense results of debates into readable articles or FAQs, and encouraging deeply nested discussion is counterproductive to that aim. Long discussions tend to recur or go round in circles - people forget points that other people made earlier, and newcomers who might read a brief summary or precis that catches their eye simply don't bother reading long intractable debates before they post. I see wiki as the answer to this - old discussions should get condensed, so that points are always easily accessible. Yes, this involves work on someone's part, but so does changing the wiki script and I think the outcome of refactoring could be rather more useful :) Wiki is not a newsgroup or a BBS, and attempting to turn it into one would miss the point. Would people be happier with a ["proper forum"]? If so, we should switch the tools we use. - MoonShadow
Heck no.  Probably because this is my first wiki, but I do not want to go back to enforced threading and other broken conventions.  (The obvious answer to 'who' for each character is the last person to emplace it.  The 'how to do it' has no obvious answer though)  --Vitenka
One fairly simple way to implement it would be to prepend each line in the stored page with a colour encoding (something like :colour#004512:) when it is written, which gets transformed into coloured text by the displaying engine. When one edits the page, the colour encodings are stripped out to give the text that is placed inside the edit box, and when the change is saved a little fiddling with diff/line numbers will put the colour encodings back in their proper places along with the new ones on the new lines. Of course already existing pages would not have the colour encodings present, so they would be merely shown in default colour, until some new lines are made. --Admiral
I respectfully think this is a bad idea. There are serious practical problems (if I correct spelling in some troll's paragraph, do I get blamed for writing it? What if I delete flames, or tweak the meaning in evil fashion, or inline answer a question?), and also philosophical problems (part of the Wiki concept is that a page doesn't have a single author to get credit or blame; ReFactoring? is pretty incompatible with the proposal; and so on). I agree with MoonShadow that some of the old arguments are long overdue refactoring. Maybe I'll do MagicTheGathering or StarCraft sometime soon. --AlexChurchill
MoonShadow has his eyes set on ChipAndPin, but is waiting for the war to settle down a little. ;) - MoonShadow
Just wade in.  You can't posisbly mess the argument up more than it already has been - and it's been refactored once already!  --Vitenka
Character by character basis?  --Vitenka
Sure, if someone donates a powerful, modern machine to do the webserving ^^; - MoonShadow

You could do something like this without requiring anything clever on the server by putting in different CSS for different levels of indentation; so DL { color: #660000; } DL DL [ color: #006600; } DL DL DL { color: #000066 } and so on.  It wouldn't tell you who said what, but it would make discussions easier to follow. --SGB
For example, try putting http://www.percysnoodle.com/indents.css in your user CSS. -- SGB
You can already supply an arbitrary URL for a stylesheet in your preferences box. I could do with going through and naming the outer blocks of all the different kinds of generated pages though. - MoonShadow
Sorry, that's what I meant by 'user CSS' -- SGB

Yes, that should be feasible in principle - I'll add it to the end of my long list of things to do.. - MoonShadow

This particular method does not work on all browsers.  Mine, for example, would IverseVideo? the text - turning White-on-white into Black-on-black.  You also have the problem of wanting to obscure the diff - which is going to be hard unless every spoiler line gets tagged as such.  --Vitenka (I'd like something, I just don't see an easy solution)
I was thinking of something like:
&lt;nowiki>Wait until you see the bit where [Spoiler:nothing happens]!...</nowiki>
...producing one of:
Wait until you see the bit where [Spoiler:<font color="#ffffff">nothing happens</font>]!...
Wait until you see the bit where <font color="#000000" style="background-color:#000000">nothing happens</font>!...
Would either of these work for people? --K

How about this:
* Each page has a "rot13 this text" box next to the search box at the bottom. If JavaScript is available, this is done locally, otherwise via a submission to the server.
* People wanting to read a spoiler copy/paste the gibberish into the box and hit the rot13 button.
* People wanting to write spoiler text copy/paste the text into the box and hit the rot13 button, then copy the text, edit the page and paste it in
* As a shortcut, text in <rot13>..</rot13> tags will be rot13ed when the page is saved, losing the tags and original text from the source.
Seems to solve the diff problem, the colour problem etc.. at the cost of being slightly more inconvenient. Thoughts? - MoonShadow
I like it. It's elegant and relatively simple. The last point (rot13 tags) is a particularly nice touch - at first glance I did wonder if it would cause code munging to an extreme degree (since I had assumed that not much was done before saving) - but since MoonShadow suggested it, I suppose it's not too bad. Gets my vote. Could perhaps have <rot13> and <spoiler> as interchangable tags, as it might be used both as spoiler and also for more geeky things? --ChrisHowlett

Dunno if it's finished yet, but hitting the Rot13 button whilst on the recent changes page does odd things.  It turned my viewing the last 2 edits (angela raynors ones) into two days instead.  Which was odd.  --Vitenka (Wondering quite how the tiny box is going to be useful enough for movie or game spoilers)
Re: The (now removed) 'spoiler text' request:  ["This_is_a_spoiler" spoiler] works.  --Vitenka

Preliminary implementation [here]. Comments welcome. - MoonShadow
Works fine, but would seem likely to aggregate a very large number of deliberate LeafPages? - things like HAND which will probably never be updated.  --Vitenka  (Request an easier way to get to the next 100, rather than getting the lot?)

You're thinking for the m:tg generator? Each BNF page includes a hidden seed in the HTML, which one could use to verify something really is generator output. BNF generators get a *lot* of activity, so not sure I'd want to keep any kind of persistent log of it for any significant length of time. - MoonShadow
I am indeed thinking that.  It's probably overkill though.  Probably no-one would ever check it.  --Vitenka

You can change this already on your [preferences page]; under "Misc", you can set edit area rows and columns to whatever you like. --MoonShadow
Huh, so you can. Feel free to remove this! --CH
(add more here..)

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